A simple solution to a complex problem

[bahiatrader]

In answer to a complex problem that is killing the Sea of Cortez, I have a simple solution. If the right Mexican official reads this, perhaps they will take it under consideration.
Singapore is one of the cleanest cities in the world. This has not always been so. Now days if you spit on the street or even drop a gum wrapper you go to jail. It might not be quite that simple in Mexico, but something must be done to save the Sea of Cortez or it's doomed to a slow death. I don't think ecological or conservation education will happen in time to save it. Another problem that is unfortunately well known. Anything in Mexico can be arranged with money. What if you can't pay or don't have access to that money?
Poaching of rhinos, and elepahants in Africa has become such a problem that many countries have given game wardens the right to shoot and kill poachers. It's the only effective means they have of controlling the problem. If you're dead, you can't poach any more. If you know you might die for it, you may want to give it serious consideration before you do poach. The long liners, pistoleros, commercial fishermen, and even we gringo sport fishermen routinely break the law with impunity because enforcement is rare and arbitrary. I also have been guilty, because nothing is ever done about it. How many of you guys sometimes bring in an extra fish or two? How many of you guys troll with more than one line out per person? I've done it. It's routine for sport fishing charters to put as many lines in the water as possible. I know I'm not supposed to cook and eat fish that I've just caught while I'm still out on the water. One of the highlights of my trips is usually having onboard fresh fish tacos. I'd be willing to pack a lunch rather than be shot for violating the law. I'd be willing to fish with only one line in lieu of dying. If you break the law once, you may never see another day, or be able to pay anyone off. Why not give the Mexican game cops the authority to kill poachers on sight? Maybe even pay a bounty for a poacher's ear or scalp. It may not be in keeping with God, truth, and The American Way, but I bet it would be effective. I imagine the Sea of Cortez is doomed, and that's just the way it is. I'm thankful that I got to see some of the good days of fishing on the body of water I've come to love. Goodbye old friend.

 

[InkaRoads]

.......Goodbye old friend.

WOW!!! Bahia that sound like a ultimatum farewell, I know it is frustrating when you see a problem and nobody else has the same opinion but remmember change takes time and it will not happen overnight, just by you kowing you are doing your part and in the way teach or guide some others of a better way to do things is more than other are doing and will help you feel better!!! IMHO
I do not even been once out there fishing in a boat and to tell you the truth I am not interested that much,mainly 'cause the situation going on with this bastard from bloodydecks, however it does make me mad how bad others are when doing so, so I figure I will not add to the problem by going out fishing other than from shore and take only what, I need no more no less!!! :eek3:

 

[JimMcG]

Don't think for a moment that no one shares the grief over the devastation of the Sea of Cortes resources. After diving the coast of California in the 60's, in comparison, the Sea of Cortes was so rich in sea life diversity that it was like diving in an aquarium and an absolute priviledge and joy to witness. In contrast, the last time I snorkled off of Piedras Pintas and San Carlos it was not only devoid of almost any sea life but was awash in disposible diapers, like snorkling in a large toilet. The thought stays with me today as an absolute tradgedy of a treasure lost.

 

[bahiatrader]

What I said is not an ultimatum in any way. The Sea of Cortez has changed forever and can not be restored in several generations to come. A delicate, beautiful ecosystem that Mother Nature presumably took millions of years to establish, can not and will not be resurected even if the fisheries is stopped completely. Gringos in the US that eat vegetable and drink California wine are just as responsible whether they eat fish or not. The Imperial Valley of California, The Central Arizona Project, and the truck gardens of the Yuma area are just as responsible. The Colorado River where I live is much cleaner than it was when I first started visiting here in the 1960s. It's a pretty nice river where I have spent countless hours, along with millions of others fishing, swimming, boating, and enjoying the beauty of nature. The flow of the river is greatly lessened even here because of agricultural and domestic needs. I know river guides above Lake Mead who routinely drink water straight from the river with no aparent ill effect. If you drank from the Colorado where it flows into the Sea of Cortez you would probably be hospitalized for nitrate or chemical poisoning, let alone the microorganisms that survive the chemical tea that is the Colorado River. There's a road that crosses the Colorado at it's mouth. The entire river, what's left of it, slowly flows through three culverts under the road. These culverts are only about three feet in diameter, and only half full. Just above these culverts you can walk across the Rio Colorado and not even get your knees wet. I've done it, and I have photos of those culverts. Without the influx of fresh water from the Colorado, the salinity of the Sea of Cortez is increasing to a point where the ecosystem is changed forever. It will never again be what it was before we industrialized food hungry humans began changing the Southwestern US and Mexico. We are part of the environment, but we have used our environment unwisely and we are beginning to see and feel the effects. If that makes me a sob sister, tree hugging ecofreak, so be it. I admit it.
It's not unlike our present economic state in the US. We've changed from a nation of producers to a nation of consumers. We've extended our credit beyond our means and we have no way to pay the bill. As President Obama said in his first speech to the press: The creditors are knocking on the door. We've also extended our credit with the Sea of Cortez beyond our ability to pay. I say again with heartfelt sorrow: Goodbye old friend.

 

[InkaRoads]

And you are right that "WE" are the ones to blame due to all the changes we made the ecosystem of the area and WE are the only ones that can change it, in my opinion the first thing that will need to be done is allow more water from the Colorado river to flow down stream like it was before, might not be at the same flow but more than it is now, it is hard because that will mean changes in many aspects and places than now a days survive because of the dams build and holding all that water, for those of us that believe that helping mother earth is worth it, after all the damage that has been done, they can call us names or what ever they want, but at the end it is true all the man made changes are screwing with the earth to the point that is becaming irriversible. All we can do is take one step at a time towards change and the more and more people that gets involve the faster it might happen!!!
Sorry bahia, I misinterpret your farewell, which I now understand is directed to the Sea of Cortez flora and fauna!!

 

[HAPPY]

~~~ GET DOWN, ~~~ GET DOWN, ~~~ ON YOUR KNEES WITH YOU, ~~~ I SAY, ~~~
~~~ AND LET US NOW PRAY, ~~~ ALL YOU HEATHENS, ~~~ DOWN WITH YOU, ~~~ YOU PAGANS, ~~~ REPENT, ~~~ I SAY, ~~~ HAVE YOU NO SHAME, ~~~ :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[jerry]

Some time in the future we will all be judged for our sins by a greater power

 

[playaperro]

Some time in the future we will all be judged for our sins by a greater power

I agree!!! :fish: :chef:

 

[Kenny]

Don't think for a moment that no one shares the grief over the devastation of the Sea of Cortes resources. After diving the coast of California in the 60's, in comparison, the Sea of Cortes was so rich in sea life diversity that it was like diving in an aquarium and an absolute priviledge and joy to witness. In contrast, the last time I snorkled off of Piedras Pintas and San Carlos it was not only devoid of almost any sea life but was awash in disposible diapers, like snorkling in a large toilet. The thought stays with me today as an absolute tradgedy of a treasure lost.

Oh man, can I relate to that. I had my first small speargun at ten, and with a raft and mask along the escarpment at Cholla, well lets just say the water was clear, and a lot of fish, crustaceans, and mollusks made a living there.That escarpment was jumping, it was like a living organism unto itself. How wonderful those memories are, but sad as well.. I also used a Hawaiian sling in the 60's early 70's, mostly in Emerald and Crescent bay's in north Laguna Cali.That far south it wasn't to bad then, the water was still clear down that way, and shore fishing was good as well.
When I came back to Cholla, I was shocked! Not only by the houses, but the escarpment was dead, the water brownish at times and plastic and crap all over in the water, especially on the incoming.
I knew the Sea of Cortez had been slowly dying, it's a big estuary itself, and without the Colorado and the other smaller estuary's with their nurseries, it was only a matter of time.. With the longline's, the new low visibility nets and such, it's been sped up immeasurably though. "The quickening" is a name a radio host has put on the overall pace of things today, and if a place is ever a bad example of what's happened with this "quickening", it's our oceans.
I certainly don't condone the taking of to many fish, but there are so many people, corporations, and greed on shore that have never wet a line, never fished, that make those guy's look like angels. Decisions, developments, laws, etc, that are made on shore for $$ and greed are far more detrimental and damaging to the Sea of Cortez than what those boy's did..hands down.

Kenny

 

[Kenny]

Hey Bahia, My uncle retired from the forestry service up in Washington state and he was a fan of the spotted Owl, and so was I.. I was up that way for some years (11) and I knew people that felt the same way about some loggers (still do) that you do about some fisherman. Cut his hands off, so he can't cut down trees sounds a little fanatical though. I doubt they would encourage that. Well, maybe just one or two.
Now as far as risk taking :idea: and falling out of tree's :shock: and such is concerned. I think you still have that covered by the choices you make for some of your swims and such. We can't help it Bahia, it's who we are..LOL
Kenny

OK, I know you probably weren't cutting down "old growth", and hopefully not clear cutting.. But if you were, and taking to much and destroying unreplenishable habitat, what's the difference, on land or sea :?:
"Much of the destruction wrought on the planet by industrial civilization derives from the use of unreplenishable sources for energy and building materials. To live more gently on the earth we need to use the non-depletable ambient energies of the sun, wind, waves and gravity, and use constantly replenished materials such as woods from sustainably managed sources, or near inexhaustible materials such as mud, clay (for bricks) and sand (for glass). Much of the energy consumed by buildings might soon be generated from un-depletable sources, with electricity from wind farms, hydroelectric, geothermal or biomass (vegetal waste) burning plants and wave or tide-driven generators. Yet it could be that less of such power is needed, because buildings themselves will harness the ambient energies around them. After all, a building only uses a tiny percentage of the energy that impacts upon it in the form of sunlight and wind. Already with today's technologies, it is feasible for buildings in much of the world (and most of the United States) to be self-sufficient in energy terms, or even energy exporters. It would be very difficult for most buildings to be made totally of replenishable materials. Yet a far greater proportion of each building could be made from such materials, as well as those that have been recycled or lend themselves to recycling"

 

[bahiatrader]

As a matter of fact, I have logged huge old growth. We were cutting experimental snow holding strips in the Bull Run watershed. We took some huge trees out of there. I didn't fall or yard that particular one, but we took one off of our landing that was 13'6" X 13'10" on the butt. I climbed old growth spar trees out of Estacada. My climbing rope was 35' long, and I had to take one end in my hand once to get 15' up in one tree. All high lead logging was clear cut. Timber is a sustainable crop. Weyerhauser, Georgia Pacific and Crown Zellerbach were far better tree farmers than the US Forest Service. They owned the land and they were growing trees to make money. I imagine a lot of the places I saw clear cut have already been logged off again. Clear cut is OK if it's done judidciously.
As far as the spotted owl is concerned, I met the guy who did the original paper at a science seminar at U of O in Eugene, OR. That was in the 80s after I'd gone back to college. The paper said that the Spotted Owl is merely an indicator species of a healthy old growth forest. It wasn't about the spotted owl at all. Spotted owls are spread clear to Mexico. A spotted owl will nest in a mail box if it has to. The paper just said that if spotted owls weren't living in an old growth forest, the forest wasn't healthy. The media, and the ecofreaks that didn't know dinkum mis-interpreted it, and it got it blown all out of proportion. I tried to have a disclaimer published by Sierra Magazine, and they rejected it. I had quotes from the original paper to substantiate the piece. They must have been having fun and making money by making a big hulabaloo out of it. I'm sure the spotted owl is still healthy and alive somewhere.

 

[Kenny]

Wrong, the Spotted Owl was a tool. It was used to keep logging out of old growth forest just like the Silvery minnow is used to keep water flowing in the Rio Grande and without them, we would have neither.
Clear cutting has destroyed a lot of unrepairable habitat for spawning Salmon and steelhead and other fish by the runoff of mud and silt into the streams and tributaries.You know that, and the statement "if it's done judidciously" is almost funny. The reason that's happened so often and is so prevalent is because they aren't judicial, and the consequences compared to the $$ they made is not a deterrent for them to be so.
You talk about logging like a commercial fisherman who doesn't care about the consequences of his actions, because it's what he does. The parallel between the Sea of Cortez and a old growth forest is obvious to a open mind. They are both beautiful and unique, and when they are gone, they are gone forever.

Kenny

 

[bahiatrader]

I agree that the true old growth forests tha are left sould be preserved and left natural forever. A healthy old growth forest is like a shrine to me. But where the damage has already been done there's no reason a sustainable crop should not be raised. Fire is also a natural part of the environment. We've harmed lots of forests by putting out fires, most of which are caused by lightening. By putting out undergrowth fires we've made matters worse by letting the so called ladder fuels grow until a fire can not be put out and will destroy the whole forest. Some seeds will not germinate unless they are acted on with fire. Take the Yellowstone Park fire. I've watched the results of that because my wife led a strike team from Oregon to that fire. They were yelled at and ridiculed because by federal law, they couldn't enter the forest with fire fighting equipment without a presidential order. Today that land supports more life than it has since it was declared a park. Species have come back that were believed to possibly be extinct. We can have a sustainable, symbiotic relationship with our environment whether it's an old growth forest or the Sea of Cotez if harvesting is done wisely and efforts are made to sustain and prevent any damage. The trouble is we're too damned greedy and uneducated to do it. That's where the true problem lies.
As for the spotted owl. I read the entire original paper. Have you? Who wanted to run the loggers out? The public? Businesses? The media? The Sierra club? City slickers that don't see the logger and the lumber industry as what built and civilized the Pacific Northwest? I don't know anybody who couldn't love the tramp logger as a symbol of freedom and independence. I hope to crap in my suspenders to never meet anyone like that. The media influences our lives far more then actual observation or science. If you can't admit that or ignorance, I hope someone craps in your choker hole. Not really. That's a really, really dirty trick.

 

[Aaron]

Simple solution? Don't have so many damn kids! Sorry, but people now live past 30, there is no reason for a single woman to have 14 children to replace herself...do the math, and then think about the reason the resources are being dried up so quickly. :fish:

 

[Kenny]

I thought I made myself clear, it's of no consequence whether or not I read that particular paper on the Owl or one of the many more that were brought into the courts throughout the years. They were used to try and stop the destruction of old growth forest that you yourself call a shrine. That along with saving habitat for a variety of other animals as well. The sad truth is it has only slowed them down, just a few years ago Bush opened up more area's to be logged that had been previously closed.
Hell no I don't consider or see loggers as those who built and civilized the Pacific Northwest.. Try the Hudson bay co. and the Northwest Co along with the trappers. How about my family on my mothers side, my great great greats, who settled in the Willamette Valley around 1850? I lived in Camas, that's where the first paper mill was built in 1885. I'm no tourist up there, and I'm certainly not ignorant to some of the bad effects our management has caused by overcrowded forest etc. I've flown over, walked through, fished, and saw for myself what was going on. I also saw the destruction of Mt St Helen's, and the amazing renewal it had in just a few short years. I saw Steelhead in the Toutle river and Elk and Deer on the devastated slopes eating the new growth in the now open areas. That doe's not mean that all clear cutting that is being done now under present regulations is good now does it?
I hope no one craps in your choker hole again... It must have been a mess when you passed the cable through..

Ken Clever

 

[bahiatrader]

You know what? I believe this thread has strayed far enough from the Sea Of Cortez. As far as I know there was only one original paper, and it was never brought before any court. If you care to pursue this further please drop me a personal note. I'd like to know who this "they" is you speak of. I'd also like to know what specific court cases you speak of. I'm sure if the people who read this forum want to know about the Oregon Trail. Jedediah Smith, or the growth of the timber industry they can read it in a history book. I've already alloted more time and effort to this forum than I intended. The US federal government that has allotted the same plots of timber more than once and allotted timber that doesn't even exist, are the last ones who need to be brought into a discussion such as this let alone anyone's geneology. You've got me there. Most of my ancesters didn't come to the Oregon country until they lost the civil war.

 

[bahiatrader]

You have it correct Aaron. We humans are like a plague on the earth. We are ignorant, but at the same time too smart for our own good. In 1796 average lifespan was approx 24 years. In 1909 it was 47. I'm collecting Social Security now, and I've outlived the world wide life expectancy of 63. In 1909 the population of Las Vegas was 30 people. In 2008 the cencus had Mexico City at 8,836,045. When I was in Ciudad de México in '89 there were emergency oxygen masks on some streets due to the oppressive air polution. There's just too damn many people eating too damn much food and causing pollution that will surely kill the planet. Maybe we need a good world war or an incurable plague. AIDS showed some promise by it's exponential spread, but we slowed that through education. Unfortunately I was instrumental in slowing that spread. In 1988 my A & P students presented a program that was adopted by governmental agencies as an AIDS education program. Ah, the things we do in the name of goodness, progress, and the preservation of life. Does the God some of you believe in have a plan for us? (Please, please don't answer that.) I say kill 'em all off and let whoever's left start over. We haven't done too well so far.

 

[jerry]

"Most of my ancestors didn't come to the Oregon country until they lost the civil war."
Much of the South was settled by the mentally ill, indentured servants and a criminal class given the choice of jail or Georga.They have always been bootlickers for the ruling class. They now make us watch Nascar,Pat Robertson and Wrestling.Our country is in ruins because of 8years of rule led by a Confederacy of Southern Dunces.
They cry about government handouts but they really mean government handouts for people with other colors than white and other religions than fundamentalist Christan . If Lincoln would have just built a wall around the nutcases the only thing I'd miss would be North Carolina BBQ and New Orleans.

 

[Kenny]

You know what? I believe this thread has strayed far enough from the Sea Of Cortez. As far as I know there was only one original paper, and it was never brought before any court. If you care to pursue this further please drop me a personal note. I'd like to know who this "they" is you speak of. I'd also like to know what specific court cases you speak of. I'm sure if the people who read this forum want to know about the Oregon Trail. Jedediah Smith, or the growth of the timber industry they can read it in a history book. I've already alloted more time and effort to this forum than I intended. The US federal government that has allotted the same plots of timber more than once and allotted timber that doesn't even exist, are the last ones who need to be brought into a discussion such as this let alone anyone's geneology. You've got me there. Most of my ancesters didn't come to the Oregon country until they lost the civil war.

You know what? I'll decide that, thank you.... OK, I won't put of any pictures of trees that have fallen on houses and such, deal? If you had actually wanted to stop this exchange you would have left it at your first sentence, but you couldn't, could you?
You had written..."City slickers that don't see the logger and the lumber industry as what built and civilized the Pacific Northwest?"...That along with that choker hole joke for anyone who disagreed with you.. Well I just thought you just might like to meet someone who did, and that would be me. As far as court cases are concerned, they've never stopped and get over the "original" paper, will ya.....GRANTS PASS, Ore. — The government must provide for the recovery of the northern spotted owl, not just its survival, when considering how much logging can be allowed in old-growth forests designated as critical habitat, a federal appeals court ruled.

The ruling by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco was the third since 2001 to find that the standard that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service uses to measure the harm caused by government projects within critical habitat for threatened and endangered species goes against the will of Congress in enacting the Endangered Species Act.


I just read Jerry's post, I'm not sure if it's about anything on this thread, but it sure is funny. :lol: Jerry, I can smell them a mile away.

Kenny

 

[jerry]

"I say kill 'em all off and let whoever's left start over. We haven't done too well so far."
Well crazy talk like the above makes me not want to eat gumbo with Mr. B unless i have a food taster from a bordering state.The scary thing is fundamentalist Christian groups are infiltrating high ranks of the Air Force.They are into this "end of times" stuff.Thank goodness they can't just push a button and get rid of us unnecessary people!...oh wait a minute they can!