Problems on the U.S. Side

[DMAC]

WOW-- just read the whole damn thread------I just wanted to read about potential border issues........ended up being a left wing rant.

Jerry might be left wing, but I'm not. But this was about border issues, with an informative and entertaining slant.....

For those that take issue with my contention that the US is a police state, here's some reading for you:

Amazon.com: Three Felonies A Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent (9781594035227): Harvey Silverglate: Books

 

[Tedram]

Jerry might be left wing, but I'm not. But this was about border issues, with an informative and entertaining slant.....

For those that take issue with my contention that the US is a police state, here's some reading for you:

Amazon.com: Three Felonies A Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent (9781594035227): Harvey Silverglate: Books

Entertaining yes----- more opinion than informative...IMHHO

That is your opinion and I respect your right to have it----- However I disagree with most of what you say. I know there are Law Enforcement guys with a heavy hand and an ax to grind-- But in my experience, most are good people doing a tough job. Treat them with respect and you will get respect back. Call them pigs and they will treat you like a pig.
Yes, I am a retired cop-- Spent twenty-one years working the streets. You said in an earlier post that you would never call the cops-- good for you. However, believe it or not-- There are people who need to cops-- The rape victim, the molested child, the horrific accident scene-- would you not want the cops to stop the person(s) who commit those crimes? Where do you draw the line? They (we) did not decide what laws went into that book you hand them (us) and tell them to enforce. Yes some get the interpretation wrong, but the system should fix that. Just as the designated driver with her lights off had the case dropped.

They (we) are not the enemy.

I guess we could debate this forever, but let's just agree to disagree and move on.

I am a new member of this forum, and I lurk here to listen to all the stories to remember and re-live all my good times in RP. I have been going to RP for over 25 years and hope to someday spend much more time there. I love the people and the culture (and the good beer, beaches and food can't be beat either)---
Good luck----- by the look of what you post you will need it.

 

[DMAC]

Entertaining yes----- more opinion than informative...IMHHO

That is your opinion and I respect your right to have it----- However I disagree with most of what you say. I know there are Law Enforcement guys with a heavy hand and an ax to grind-- But in my experience, most are good people doing a tough job. Treat them with respect and you will get respect back. Call them pigs and they will treat you like a pig.

I have a friend that is a cop. He seems like a decent guy and I would like to think that he is the fabled "officer friendly" I have heard-tell of, but I have never encountered him in an official capacity, and obviously me being his friend would put a certain slant on any official business we might have.

There are people in the liberty movement who are totally opposed to calling cops "pigs" as they are of the belief that cops need to be educated and reformed and brought over to our side. Some have obviously made that trip or are on their way (as evidenced by organizations like LEAP and Oath Keepers), but I think those cops and former cops understand better than I why some of us would refer to the cops as "pigs". Suffice to say it's my belief that most "good" cops will have a short law enforcement career and therefore I believe that the vast majority of cops are irredeemable. The fact is that occupations attract people sometimes for the wrong reason. Those interested in white-collar theft often go into the financial field, especially in banking. Child molesters often become teachers, clergy, scout masters, etc because it puts them in contact with children. Unfortunately the militarization of domestic police forces has, in my opinion, attracted a good number of violent psychopaths to enter various police and law enforcement agencies. There has always been wide-spread corruption among police, but I think the level of violence aimed at the general public has increased quite a bit in the last few years. It used to be that people in your former occupation were referred to as "peace officers" as their general duty was to keep the peace, but it seems to me now days the arrival of a cop increase the level of violence to many situations because you have people with violent streaks being indoctrinated into a culture where violence is glorified and phoney machismo is the norm.

Yes, I am a retired cop-- Spent twenty-one years working the streets. You said in an earlier post that you would never call the cops-- good for you.

There is the possibility that I might call the cops, but that is a pretty narrow set of circumstances. My preference would be rather than only having one police force to call on, I would have my choice of police forces to make use of (yes, that means private policing).

However, believe it or not-- There are people who need to cops-- The rape victim, the molested child, the horrific accident scene-- would you not want the cops to stop the person(s) who commit those crimes? Where do you draw the line?

And how many of the issues you just addressed require a cop who is decked out like he is going into battle? Yet if you call the pigs, that's kinda what shows up - some roidhead with an attitude, a badge and an array of weapons. Usually the cops responding to the scene are either overkill for what is required or worse, show up and make the situation worse. Do I need to show you the videos of cops beating the **** out of a guy who was diabetic and in insulin shock? How about the cops who showed up to a car crash and shot the victim dead because he was in shock? I could go on, but the point is that cops these days seem to be all about either finding something to charge someone with or beating the crap out of whoever they can.

They (we) did not decide what laws went into that book you hand them (us) and tell them to enforce. Yes some get the interpretation wrong, but the system should fix that. Just as the designated driver with her lights off had the case dropped.

First off, the designated driver was not a mistake, it was a pig committing perjury, for which he was never charged. Second, are you OK with just going along with orders? I mean, that was the defense the concentration camp guards tried at Nuremberg. Would you feel OK with locking a guy up for having some empty beer bottles in the back of his SUV? How about sending someone to prison for having a few grams of weed on him? How about charging someone with DUI when they've had 1 beer? How about writing someone a $140 parking ticket for parking in an unpaved parking lot?

I think many pigs lack the intelligence or introspection to even question what it is they are doing or the morality of it. I think that is exactly the people police forces are trying to recruit. As a result I think my perception, and hopefully the general public perception of the police is going to deteriorate greatly in the next few years.

They (we) are not the enemy.

Yes, you are. When you guys hide on the highway trying to catch us on a speed trap, you are acting like highwaymen. When you send a drug sniffing dog around my vehicle because you pulled me over for a supposed broken tail light, you are invading my right to privacy and my right to peacefully pursue happiness. Whenever you bust down a door serving a no-knock warrant, you are acting in an uncivilized and tyrannical way.

I have very little fear of criminals. I have a rational fear of the government and their hired goons, the cops.

I guess we could debate this forever, but let's just agree to disagree and move on.

I am a new member of this forum, and I lurk here to listen to all the stories to remember and re-live all my good times in RP. I have been going to RP for over 25 years and hope to someday spend much more time there. I love the people and the culture (and the good beer, beaches and food can't be beat either)---
Good luck----- by the look of what you post you will need it.

Agreed, although I have to take issue with the beer thing; cold Mexican beer is fine on a hot beach, but in reality it's not truly good beer. I'm actually disappointed that it seems I can buy better beer cheaper here in AZ than I can in RP. Hopefully that will change though. Americans have had their beer palette become much more refined in the past two decades so maybe the Mexicans will follow suit.

 

[Kenny]

These type of exchanges on this thread didn't even enter mind mind today when a co-worker friend was telling us what a jerk his cop son had become. One of his many storys was about how he'd ticketed this kid on prom night and ruined his evening, because he could. No drugs or alcohol involved, the kid just got nervous because he had stopped half way into a crosswalk with a cop next to him, and when he backed up he bumped the car (no damage) behind him. A $190 fine, traffic school, and probably a increase in his insurance. When he told his son that maybe he could have given him some slack, it was prom night, his son had told him he likes to follow people real close and for a long time knowing it makes them nervous, and sooner or later they'll make a mistake.
He said his son works out hard 6 day's a week, and has put on weight and beefed up considerably. I said "doe's he use steroids?" I don't think he uses them anymore was his reply. He did seem proud though when he told us his son is called on first when something big is his going down because he likes to be the first one through the door, and he isn't afraid of anything.

If my kid was like that I certainly wouldn't tell my co-workers or anyone else for that matter is exactly what I told him.

 

[rockyptjoe]

DMAC.....I'm left speechless! I can't tell which "mind" has gone over the deep end more....our recently re-departed Happy/Silvia....or yours!

 

[MIRAMAR]

Way too much time on your hands- Mark aka Seadweller has some great charities which could use some help with someone offering their time.

 

[DMAC]

DMAC.....I'm left speechless! I can't tell which "mind" has gone over the deep end more....our recently re-departed Happy/Silvia....or yours!

Joe, you're speechless because you don't have an argument, you're propagandized world view has left you in a catatonic state, as you have been programmed to do. No worries Joe, pour yourself a stiff one (cuz that's the drug the government wants you to use), go down to the beach and watch the sunset while listening to that stupid song "I'm Proud to be an Merican!" and just repeat the mantra "land of the free, home of the brave, land of the free, home of the brave" and it will pass. Pretty soon you'll be looking at the good 'ol USA and see nothing but friendly govt workers welcoming you and white picket fences.

 

[DMAC]

These type of exchanges on this thread didn't even enter mind mind today when a co-worker friend was telling us what a jerk his cop son had become. One of his many storys was about how he'd ticketed this kid on prom night and ruined his evening, because he could. No drugs or alcohol involved, the kid just got nervous because he had stopped half way into a crosswalk with a cop next to him, and when he backed up he bumped the car (no damage) behind him. A $190 fine, traffic school, and probably a increase in his insurance. When he told his son that maybe he could have given him some slack, it was prom night, his son had told him he likes to follow people real close and for a long time knowing it makes them nervous, and sooner or later they'll make a mistake.
He said his son works out hard 6 day's a week, and has put on weight and beefed up considerably. I said "doe's he use steroids?" I don't think he uses them anymore was his reply. He did seem proud though when he told us his son is called on first when something big is his going down because he likes to be the first one through the door, and he isn't afraid of anything.

If my kid was like that I certainly wouldn't tell my co-workers or anyone else for that matter is exactly what I told him.

Kenny if that were my son, I would disown him. Period.

 

[playaperro]

Has anyone read 50 shades of grey? Is it a good read?

 

[playaperro]

Entertaining yes----- more opinion than informative...IMHHO

That is your opinion and I respect your right to have it----- However I disagree with most of what you say. I know there are Law Enforcement guys with a heavy hand and an ax to grind-- But in my experience, most are good people doing a tough job. Treat them with respect and you will get respect back. Call them pigs and they will treat you like a pig.
Yes, I am a retired cop-- Spent twenty-one years working the streets. You said in an earlier post that you would never call the cops-- good for you. However, believe it or not-- There are people who need to cops-- The rape victim, the molested child, the horrific accident scene-- would you not want the cops to stop the person(s) who commit those crimes? Where do you draw the line? They (we) did not decide what laws went into that book you hand them (us) and tell them to enforce. Yes some get the interpretation wrong, but the system should fix that. Just as the designated driver with her lights off had the case dropped.

They (we) are not the enemy.

I guess we could debate this forever, but let's just agree to disagree and move on.

I am a new member of this forum, and I lurk here to listen to all the stories to remember and re-live all my good times in RP. I have been going to RP for over 25 years and hope to someday spend much more time there. I love the people and the culture (and the good beer, beaches and food can't be beat either)---
Good luck----- by the look of what you post you will need it.

You want respect, you come on here and earn it!BTW if you don't mind me asking where you were employed?

 

[tmotsinger]

Tedram, I'm feeling you. I held law enforcement officers in the highest regard until 10 days ago. I felt if I were doing nothing wrong and I treated them with respect, all would work out well. A certain libertarian friend always told me I was a Pollyanna, but I maintained that I wouldn't succumb to his dystopian view of the world. He said I'm still 9 years old, with the nice officer visiting my school, and I can't say he was wrong.

But now I have multiple dogs in this melee of my mind. I won't choose a political side, because I don't have one. And I can't choose a law enforcement side, though I had a strongly positive one 10 days ago.

I'd like to openly relate my embarassing experience, because I've been rolling over and over in it, and relating it might be cathartic. And maybe helpful to those crossing the US Border Zone.

But first this--police aren't pigs. I'm an anthropologist, and dehumanizing groups of others into animal form is as old a form of tribalism as there is. With apologies to DMAC, such usage is an incipient form of hooliganism (kinda fun, frankly), ethnocentrism, racism, and much, much worse. It's natural in the raw, but civilized society requires that we rise above the raw. Even humanistic atheists would call dehumanization of groups dangerous.

OK, before the cautionary tale, some background. I'm an archaeologist and the owner of a little archaeological consulting firm. Wife, daughter, stepson. Funlover, but law-abider. No better or worse than any other good citizen. 45 years old and not at all jaded by life or terribly so by government. Social liberal, fiscal conservative. Love travel, love Mexico, new owner in Las Conchas.

On the Circus Mexicus weekend, we had kids and a slew of good friends at our house. Beach trips, music, ton of laughs, ton of fun, all safe. I had to split to a biz meeting to my New Mexico office on Monday, though, so split I did as everyone else slept. Was stopped in Sonoyta, paid a mordida, and kept going. Stopped at the border and detained and searched. Then stopped 10 miles north by an oddly well-armed cadre of 3 Pima County Sheriff officers in 3 separate trucks.

License, reg, insurance out the window. Stepped out as they requested. Politely granted them search privileges. They asked me to walk a line. Gave me a breathilyzer. Senior guy told me, "Mr. Motsinger, you are twice the legal limit." I was aghast. I said, "I"m not sure how that could be. I haven't been drinking." He asked, "Were you drinking this weekend?" I said, "Yes, but that was yesterday. I guess somehow I've still got too much in me." One of the other officers said, "Yeah, that can accumulate for a long time." I said, "Whatever you have to do, officer, go ahead." I figured I was somehow an unwitting DUI, and was fully willing to just be taken off the road and charged. I asked to see the breathilyzer because I still couldn't believe it. He jerked it away as I leaned toward it. He said he wouldn't show it because it wasn't admissable. So I said, "OK, let's just get to the blood test. Please administer it."

He wouldn't, which I thought was strange if I really were twice the legal limit at 10:00 am on a Monday. He told me they'd found 4 open beer bottles, so they knew I'd been drinking. I was puzzled, but there they laid them on the Sonoran sand below me. I asked, "Where were those? In the back? They're empty bottles." He told me it doesn't matter, they're open containers. I looked at them and said, "Those are trash from our beach time yesterday. They were back in the third row, weren't they?"

He told me I was being uncooperative and that he really wanted to let me go, but I'd have to stop being this way or they wouldn't. Puzzled, I told him I'd be happy to tell him anything he wanted if I could just get on my way since I hadn't done anything wrong. The three of them conferred outside my earshot. Then the guy who appeared to be the junior one handcuffed me and Mirandized me. Led me into his patrol truck. And transported me to Ajo. Along the way, we chatted and he said that the sergeant had decided I had been uncooperative and the had to charge me. It wouldn't be long...just a few minutes to an hour before I was on my way. I spent the next 25 hours in the jail.

Some stories to be told in there, but I'll just abbreviate by saying that if my mother had gotten a one-day report card, it might have read, "Thomas just doesn't look like he fits in with the other students. Could you send him to school tomorrow more inarticulate and physically scraggled out?" I wasn't beligerent at all...I just really, really didn't fit in. Finally got a hearing with the judge the next day. Chained, shackle...yet resplendent in orange and chrome!

The judge offered me the minimum sentence of $255 fine if I pled guilty to a Class 2 Misdemeanor open container violation for the empty 4 bottles. Or I could fight it and face what she made clear was a maximum sentence of 4 months and $750.

If a lot of you forum-istas are like me, you're thinking, "Oh, you've gotta fight that, dude!" Truth is, I'd be a horrible POW. I'd have done anything to just get out of there and have no chance of ever going back. So I caved, pled guilty, and within an hour I was hitchhiking back to retrieve my truck and get back to my wife and kids in Penasco. All business appointments for the week canceled.

So no judgements here, no political slant, and this time no jokes. I don't even have a moral for any of you traveling the U.S. Border Zone. There's just one law enforcement/judiciary experience for you to consider.

 

[playaperro]

anyone that has cash to buy a home in las conchas would never be thumbing it. Then again you say they took your passport at the border, no one can take your passport unless your arrested at the border. Like I asked you before who is the office manager at las conchas you have to know that if you bought there you have to be approved by them...

 

[rockyptjoe]

Sorry guys...but I'm calling B.S. on this entire thread for so many different reasons!!! :rofl:

 

[Kenny]

but there they laid them on the Sonoran sand below me.

All we need after this line is a description (with colors of course) of the sun rising above the majestic mountains in the background and we'd have another Steinbeck in the making.

 

[DMAC]

But first this--police aren't pigs. I'm an anthropologist, and dehumanizing groups of others into animal form is as old a form of tribalism as there is. With apologies to DMAC, such usage is an incipient form of hooliganism (kinda fun, frankly), ethnocentrism, racism, and much, much worse. It's natural in the raw, but civilized society requires that we rise above the raw. Even humanistic atheists would call dehumanization of groups dangerous.

I'm frankly ok with it and with tribalism. I'm reveling in my tribal roots right now. When i think about it, my ancestors were so resistant to big, central government that they were one of the few, if not the only society the Romans flat-out gave up on and spent untold amounts of money building a wall to keep them out rather than try and conquer them. You see tmots, my anti-government tendencies are probably genetic, so you have to treat it with the same sort of compassion you would someone with a genetic disorder; I literally can't help myself.

As to the "pigs" moniker, I didn't coin it and I feel like using it pays homage to my fellow travelers from the 60's. I used to use it when I was a teen because I thought it was cool and I use it now because it somehow aptly describes the disdain to which I have for them as a group. Some in the liberty movement refer to them as the "Blue Mafia" or the "Gang with Badges", but I really don't think those terms aptly convey the disdain that ought to be heaped on them. To be honest any civilized society would have nothing to do with such a group. Civilization requires the rejection of anything uncivilized. If you find my description uncivilized, then it aptly describes the cops. And no, I do not find the "dehumanization" of groups dangerous if the group acts in a manner which is inhumane. Despite the fact that there may have been some "good" Nazis, most people have no problem using dehumanizing terms for the Nazis, because they themselves earned such terms by acting in an inhumane way. Cops who stop interacting with people on a human level and simply revert to becoming enforcers for the state are very much inhumane. The former cop here who claims that "cops are not the enemy" is simply wrong. Cops have, as a group, shown themselves willing to enforce laws even if the enforcement of such laws is a great injustice to the person they are enforcing them against. As I said, normal, functional compassionate individuals would be repulsed by the idea of locking someone in a cage for have empty beer bottles in the back of his vehicle, especially when there was empirical evidence that the person had not been drinking. You were shocked by it, I was shocked by it (well, not so much because I am a little more aware than you), the people around you were shocked by it. So why were the pigs not shocked by it? The short answer is because they're pigs. They sold out any humanity they might have had to be a goon for the state. And to all those on the thread who claim "hey, if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear" I say, you have done something 'wrong', you just might not know it until someone in law enforcement takes your freedom or your money. That was the point of the book I referenced earlier. Even if you were a practicing lawyer, there is no way you could know all the laws that were passed by all levels of government in just the past year. It simply is impossible for the average Joe to not be a scofflaw because the government has designed the laws so that they can go after anyone at any time.

And speaking of Joe, Joe go look into your medicine cabinet. Do you see any prescription drugs you have kept beyond the prescription date? If so, congratulations, you're guilty of a federal drug offense. Sure we all keep the leftover Vicodin or Oxycodone from a prescription because you never know if you'll need it in the future, but doing so makes you a criminal. The only difference between you and the guy who's in prison for having some weed is that the pigs have not managed to get into your medicine cabinet yet. But eventually they will. I am sure we'll have mandatory house-by-house inspections down the line all in the name of keeping the homeland secure. So Joe, just make sure you don't keep those prescription meds too long; eventually the pigs might find out.

 

[Hooch]

SOunds like PIG story to me, F those crooked ass cops in the A

 

[mexicoruss]

Tom I loved your story, and Joe, I know Tom very well you can call it BS if you want but I am with Tom on this one. I am sorry that you had to deal with this. You can be sure that this is being read by the boys up north and maybe it will have a little impact on future dealings. The power behind the gun and badge is scary. The idea that their corrupt actions in the middle of the desert will never be found out is laughable.

I wonder what would happen if I got pulled over taking my aluminum cans to the recyclers....thats 100 open containers Mr Black....I guess I will try it to see.

 

[PintoPoint]

Mexicoruss'
Better to be heading north with four empty beer bottles then be heading south with four empty shell casings.

Rick
Cholla Bay

 

[playaperro]

Bullshit Russ another one of your ploys, no somo's pendejo's!

 

[Tedram]

I have a friend that is a cop. He seems like a decent guy and I would like to think that he is the fabled "officer friendly" I have heard-tell of, but I have never encountered him in an official capacity, and obviously me being his friend would put a certain slant on any official business we might have.

There are people in the liberty movement who are totally opposed to calling cops "pigs" as they are of the belief that cops need to be educated and reformed and brought over to our side. Some have obviously made that trip or are on their way (as evidenced by organizations like LEAP and Oath Keepers), but I think those cops and former cops understand better than I why some of us would refer to the cops as "pigs". Suffice to say it's my belief that most "good" cops will have a short law enforcement career and therefore I believe that the vast majority of cops are irredeemable. The fact is that occupations attract people sometimes for the wrong reason. Those interested in white-collar theft often go into the financial field, especially in banking. Child molesters often become teachers, clergy, scout masters, etc because it puts them in contact with children. Unfortunately the militarization of domestic police forces has, in my opinion, attracted a good number of violent psychopaths to enter various police and law enforcement agencies. There has always been wide-spread corruption among police, but I think the level of violence aimed at the general public has increased quite a bit in the last few years. It used to be that people in your former occupation were referred to as "peace officers" as their general duty was to keep the peace, but it seems to me now days the arrival of a cop increase the level of violence to many situations because you have people with violent streaks being indoctrinated into a culture where violence is glorified and phoney machismo is the norm.



There is the possibility that I might call the cops, but that is a pretty narrow set of circumstances. My preference would be rather than only having one police force to call on, I would have my choice of police forces to make use of (yes, that means private policing).



And how many of the issues you just addressed require a cop who is decked out like he is going into battle? Yet if you call the pigs, that's kinda what shows up - some roidhead with an attitude, a badge and an array of weapons. Usually the cops responding to the scene are either overkill for what is required or worse, show up and make the situation worse. Do I need to show you the videos of cops beating the **** out of a guy who was diabetic and in insulin shock? How about the cops who showed up to a car crash and shot the victim dead because he was in shock? I could go on, but the point is that cops these days seem to be all about either finding something to charge someone with or beating the crap out of whoever they can.



First off, the designated driver was not a mistake, it was a pig committing perjury, for which he was never charged. Second, are you OK with just going along with orders? I mean, that was the defense the concentration camp guards tried at Nuremberg. Would you feel OK with locking a guy up for having some empty beer bottles in the back of his SUV? How about sending someone to prison for having a few grams of weed on him? How about charging someone with DUI when they've had 1 beer? How about writing someone a $140 parking ticket for parking in an unpaved parking lot?

I think many pigs lack the intelligence or introspection to even question what it is they are doing or the morality of it. I think that is exactly the people police forces are trying to recruit. As a result I think my perception, and hopefully the general public perception of the police is going to deteriorate greatly in the next few years.



Yes, you are. When you guys hide on the highway trying to catch us on a speed trap, you are acting like highwaymen. When you send a drug sniffing dog around my vehicle because you pulled me over for a supposed broken tail light, you are invading my right to privacy and my right to peacefully pursue happiness. Whenever you bust down a door serving a no-knock warrant, you are acting in an uncivilized and tyrannical way.

I have very little fear of criminals. I have a rational fear of the government and their hired goons, the cops.




Agreed, although I have to take issue with the beer thing; cold Mexican beer is fine on a hot beach, but in reality it's not truly good beer. I'm actually disappointed that it seems I can buy better beer cheaper here in AZ than I can in RP. Hopefully that will change though. Americans have had their beer palette become much more refined in the past two decades so maybe the Mexicans will follow suit.

DMAC-
You are very articulate and have conviction----I respect that very much.
I still think your view is very extreme (and wrong)… Maybe someday we can share a cold one in RP and have a discussion in person---- I think we both could learn a few things..
Ted