Two more homicides?

[PitiquitoRosy]

If we have learned anything from the Drug War it should be when you cut off one head of the snake, another rises to take it's place. Rocky Point, with all the changes it has gone through, is highly likely to be a future corridor if it isn't being exploited already. What will produce the violence is when the various cartels fight among themselves for the 'right' to the corridor. I'm sure they'll settle it with a vicious game of volleyball though!

A corridor is a way to get from one place to another. Rocky Point is not convenient as a drug trafficking corridor. So you are wrong here. The city, like all cities has a drug problem with users and abusers as well as pushers. There will be occasions of pushers fighting for turf, but these aren't cartels and they aren't even important in the scheme of things. If someone is going to run drugs from the south to the north, Caborca to Sonoyta or Nogales is the fastest route. Why the hell come to Penasco? Look, I think what officials do is going to be integral to future development as well as safety and security in the region, but I have a problem with the fatalistic declarations you make. Perhaps because I'm more involved. Many Americans have trouble differentiating random violence with cartel-related activity. There is a huge difference. What is happening in Baja is not being done by the cartels. Those are thugs. Highway pirates. Everyday criminals, despite their viciousness. Cartels is a whole other ballgame. Volleyball, anyone?

 

[beachgirl]

Cheers to you Rosy!!

 

[m4shawn]

... but I have a problem with the fatalistic declarations you make.

Amen, Rosy, amen. It's patently wrong to impugn PP, much less plant some conjured fatal diagnosis on it based on nothing but "what ifs" and arbitrary speculations. It's glib. Oh hell, it's plain dumb.

 

[Submarine]

A corridor is a way to get from one place to another. Rocky Point is not convenient as a drug trafficking corridor. So you are wrong here. The city, like all cities has a drug problem with users and abusers as well as pushers. There will be occasions of pushers fighting for turf, but these aren't cartels and they aren't even important in the scheme of things. If someone is going to run drugs from the south to the north, Caborca to Sonoyta or Nogales is the fastest route. Why the hell come to Penasco? Look, I think what officials do is going to be integral to future development as well as safety and security in the region, but I have a problem with the fatalistic declarations you make. Perhaps because I'm more involved. Many Americans have trouble differentiating random violence with cartel-related activity. There is a huge difference. What is happening in Baja is not being done by the cartels. Those are thugs. Highway pirates. Everyday criminals, despite their viciousness. Cartels is a whole other ballgame. Volleyball, anyone?

I think the port would look fairly inviting, including any other marinas that may come to fruition, and where they brought the transformers a year or so ago. . We didn't seem to have any trouble offloading those huge transformers so a couple of large loads of drugs would be no problem at all. Get some speedboats to run some up the coast into smaller marinas, run some up to the Mayan airport and fly it north. Get some onto vehicles, RV's even and send some up the new Coastal highway, more up 8, some across to Sassabe or Nogales. Maybe they'll build better ramps and cross the border barricade. If these drug dealers put half their efforts into legitimate businesses they might be even more successful and live longer.

Maybe the Baja crimes are cartel related, maybe not but they are definitely more organized than you typical tourist crimes. Maybe minor league to you but I doubt the victims feel any consolation.

 

[Submarine]

Just saying it doesn't make it true, Sub, I really :-D do not know where you are coming from here. Impugning the stability of your adversary is an old standby tactic that of itself is hollow. I would call your accusation that I suffer a lack of objectivity an odd one when both our posts are read.



Huh???? Are you -- derrr... what?



Once again: hahahaha! Mine and Bob's own reality? I think Bob took the time to break this down pretty damn well a few posts back; if you're the only one who still can't understand what he explained and how these stats are meaningless in a discussion about any new and special danger with regard to border violence specific to RP..... then I really think this is like debating the color of a sunset with a blind man.




Sub....(god) no one challenged their worth when utilized contextually correctly - we didn't try to sully the compilation nor the group that did it - we're decrying YOU and your attempt to co-opt them as somehow proving your point that urban myth murders may be going on all around RP and we don't know it and as such, the danger in RP is probably valid as are the feelings of fear about going there.
Really man, obfuscating the original point is also a bad tactic. I'm pretty much done debating tangential crap on these irrelevant detours. Go ahead and try to bury me with piles of links, stats, articles and other ancillary grenades, man.

It keeps coming back to the lurking ninja concept - recheck Rosy's post - she's a wise one.

You were saying something about impugning your adversary being hollow? You've been doing that since your first post. Pot meet Kettle!

 

[Submarine]

Back up, Bud! I responded to the thread, not to you. Take your defensiveness to someone who gives a crap about the conclusions you want to ram down other people's throats. And by the way, posting of articles verbatim is tedious. On the internet articles can be found to make any argument under the sun. This is a lively intelligent group and you should be able to hold your own without beating anyone over the head with articles you think support your view of where Mexico is headed unless more people listen to you.

Well why quote me at the beginning of that post then? The reason I quote you here is so that it is clear what I am responding to. I'm not defensive at all, but if you are going to attribute something to me at least have it be something I posted.

I'm holding my own just fine, and really, I don't even need to try. The entire U.S. Media seems to be behind the point of view I have espoused here (note to the 'intelligent', read that carefully). Also, the majority of the public seem to be accepting that view as witnessed by the epic downturn in tourism to RP and Mexico in general. Also, no one here, intelligent or not, seems to be able to express any coherent argument against the popular view that "MEXICO IS DANGEROUS!".
What are we up to here, 7 pages now? You're preaching to the converted, no one is going to stay home based on what I or anyone else says here.

So if you want tourism to pick up, the "Mexico is Safe" crowd needs to come up with a better argument. I've told people for years that Mexico is as safe as you want it to be be but who do you think people believe?

As for me, I'll continue to enjoy the low rates that this 'violence' hysteria has produced. Thanks everyone!

 

[m4shawn]

I said impugning the stability of you adversary is bad juju - as in bringing their mental capacity into question. If you're gonna accuse someone of being irrational or unobjective you should accompany it immediately and clearly with your reasoning --- if you just throw it at me as a categorical barb.. then it's hollow. I've impugned your reasoning and the haphazard nature of your logic chain and the glibness of your fatalistic attitude - not your character or intelligence. You're way overreaching.

Look Sub, out of respect for the other posters and the forum overall I'm not going to tangle with you on this sideshow stuff about statistics once someone like Bob has unquestionably addressed it and dismantled it - it's a stupid "nuh uh".... "uh huh" volley otherwise.

This whole tussle began when I called you out on OVER stating the risk factors in your reply /advice to a guy who genuinely wanted to know if he was foolishly putting his family in danger by traveling into PP.
"OVER" being the operative part of my objection to your words.
Neither I nor anyone else was trying to sell PP as a fantasy adventureland charmed from the everyday threats of any town.
We simply call foul on your strange and OVER stated assertions that there is some special threat that MERITS fear of the place.
You've been alternately vague, story-telling, supportive of our view, and just argumentative - I'm not even sure what your point is anymore - care to start over?

I stand by my original caling out of your OVERstatements, and even after all this fooforaw you've kicked up you've not presented one real comon sense reason to justify the phobia. Speculation, without good support, does not a proven point make.

 

[m4shawn]

The entire U.S. Media seems to be behind the point of view I have espoused here (note to the 'intelligent', read that carefully).

OH MY GOD. You're going to point to the hysteria itself....... to prove your point that the hysteria is justified?
The media is your testimonial witness... your source material?

You've got to be joking Sub --- do you want to clarify this or take it back before your credibility is shot?

You DO realize tha the American media are as balanced and responsible as.... well.... a drug cartel pushing product, don't you? The media was the gasoline on the spark ---- they're not your reference points.

WOW.

 

[Kenny]

made of rocks.

F you and your "reefs"! :lol: Those are more shoals or mounds, hardly worthy of calling a "reef". A reef would be composed of something organic, or living at one time, not those miserable pile of rocks!

I can see where it would ruin the Sandy Beach mystique though. People aren't going to pay Scottsdale prices for shrimp at a restaurant called "The Shoal". Guess I'm just prejudiced though from seeing some of the best and most vibrant coral reefs close up. I'll try to refrain!

You are still wrong Sub... A reef does not have to be organic, as you have insisted before. Like your head, it can be made of rocks.:roll: You seem to be stuck with the "best-known". Therefore you have a narrow rock pile sub.
"If you're gonna accuse someone of being irrational or unobjective you should accompany it immediately and clearly with your reasoning" There ya go..LOL

In nautical terminology, a reef is a rock, sandbar, or other feature lying beneath the surface of the water (six fathoms or less at low water).
Many reefs result from abiotic processes—deposition of sand, wave erosion planning down rock outcrops, and other natural processes—but the best-known reefs are the coral reefs of tropical waters developed through biotic processes dominated by corals and calcareous algae. Artificial reefs such as shipwrecks are sometimes created to enhance physical complexity on generally featureless sand bottoms in order to attract a diverse assemblage of organisms, especially fish

 

[Jim]

One, Two... Your outa there. I tried not to chime in again but I couldn't help myself.

 

[Roberto]

""Well if you and Bob want to disregard statistics based on your own reality be my guest. The groups that compiles those statistics didn't do so on the basis that they are worthless for comparison. What would be the point? ""

I don't see that anyone 'disregarded' the statistics. The point is that the 'statisticts' were misinterpreted. These numbers, collected as they are, are useful for descriptive purposes,and much less for predictive purposes. This is an important difference often misunderstood.

 

[jerry]

Tahiti sucks too.
http://www.elicia.org/trip/tahiti/tahiti1.htm
unless you are fond of package tour douce bags and hillybilly newlyweds

 

[Submarine]

Well if you and Bob want to disregard statistics based on your own reality be my guest. The groups that compiles those statistics didn't do so on the basis that they are worthless for comparison. What would be the point?

I don't see that anyone 'disregared' the statistics. The point is that the 'statisticts' were misinterpreted. These numbers, collected as they are, are useful for descriptive purposes,and much less for predictive purposes. This is an important difference often misunderstood.

Sorry for the typos Bob, the ASUS EEEpc I use when travelling has a very small keyboard.
So, by your logic, even though I can show that Phoenix has been very hot the last few decades I can't predict that this summer it will be hot. Good thing I didn't pack away my jacket!

 

[Submarine]

Tahiti sucks too.
http://www.elicia.org/trip/tahiti/tahiti1.htm
unless you are fond of package tour douce bags and hillybilly newlyweds

That's priceless Jerry! I was actually surprised that there are quite a few camping spots on Tahiti and Moorea, something for every budget. They honeymooners are the ones that get suckered into a package tour, usually from Costco. I had one friend who spent $15k on a 9 day trip and he hated it because it rained the whole time. I could have brokered him a better trip for a month at that rate! The high prices do keep away the hillbillys for the most part, though there is always that Ugly American factor anywhere you go. Tahiti actually changed my whole opinion of the French BTW, but maybe they are just much more relaxed in Tahiti.

 

[Submarine]

OH MY GOD. You're going to point to the hysteria itself....... to prove your point that the hysteria is justified?
The media is your testimonial witness... your source material?

You've got to be joking Sub --- do you want to clarify this or take it back before your credibility is shot?

You DO realize tha the American media are as balanced and responsible as.... well.... a drug cartel pushing product, don't you? The media was the gasoline on the spark ---- they're not your reference points.

WOW.

Ever see kids pick on the retarded kid in gradeschool and after a while it wasn't fun because their poor victim couldn't help being retarded and it just became cruel? I think I know how those kids felt.

Stuart let the cat out of the bag a while back but you still didn't get it.
I have been jerking your chain

Reread that whole post you quoted and try to be objective. I laid it all out for you but apparently not clear enough. Your 'defense' of Rocky Point sounds like those hysterical ads on Craigslist from desparate condo owners. "CONDO FOR RENT--ROCKY POINT IS SAFE!!" Just pull up the vacation rental section and see what I mean. Like I said, the media and the general public has accepted that Mexico is dangerous and that Rocky Point is no exception. All anyone can come up with is that either they haven't had problems on their trips or they've lived there a while and feel safe etc. This is not going to change public opinion and is following the same path Baja has taken to try and hide the problem.

So try to put aside your obvious disgust for me and think about what I have been saying in a different context.

 

[Kenny]

Oh no! Sub has just jumped out of the plane without a parachute again. Why do we always let him do that?

Kenny

 

[m4shawn]

Insipid stuff Sub. On behalf of anyone who gave the effort to engage you intelligently: bugger off.

 

[Roberto]

SUB Sez: So, by your logic, even

My logic has nothing to do with it. It's a simple statement of fact. Check your statistics book. Keep with your original assertion, you are misinterpreting. Bye Bye.

 

[Submarine]

Well I guess we know what will be on the barbie at Jerry's place!

 

[m4shawn]

See what Sub has taught us in today's posting class on gripping your pet "I'm right" point? Grip it tightly! Grip it tightly enough that no one can take it from you... take the limp, dead body of it that you strangled with your Kung-fu grip.

You see, if all else fails and you paint yourself into a corner.... abort! Abandon your integrity and tell them you were yanking their chain - it was a "punking"! Sure, you'll be snapping the neck of your entire argument, you know the one you spent 16 posts trying to sell even with entire articles, but you'll let them all know: "I'm the wiser one - GOTCHA! You thought I was serious? PSYCHE - I was being an Internet Troll! You dumbass!"

Brilliant.