My brothers dogs were trapped and left to die by a trapper that did not check his traps for three days a few months ago.....chewed their legs half off and had to be put down..... there will be blood.....
I know there are responsible hunters and trappers...I know a few but the majority are just idiots.I have the bullet holes in my barn to prove it.One shot my metal gorilla sculpture by my ranch house last year...claimed it looked like a doe from his view...proud he hit it
Reason I'm asking is that Az Game and Fish hasn't issued any doe tags to the general public in several decades. Someone who explains shooting a sculpture thinking it was a doe is confessing to intending to commit a crime. Most likely he was simply lying to you, and you should have called it in to the sheriff's department.
Seems whenever somebody with a gun commits vandalism, people want to say it was a hunter. Haven't you noticed there are a lot of people who just want to go out into the desert and shoot at things?
You say the majority of hunters are idiots. Unless you know of some formal study measuring the I.Q.'s of hunters, you're evidently basing your sweeping assessment on personal experience. One's perspective tends to be influenced by the members of any group one is exposed to. The hunters I know are businessmen, engineers, lawyers, judges, teachers, biologists, building contractors and otherwise gainfully employed people who do not turn into morons when they go into the mountains and deserts. If I just went by the ones I know, I'd have to conclude that hunters are smarter, wealthier and more responsible than the average person. Of course, I know better. And I'm sure my perspective would be different if I were mainly exposed to the people who roam the back roads of Cochise County with guns looking for stuff to shoot at. The social data (school performance, crime rates and other metrics for social and economic well-being) for Cochise would not lead one to expect particularly dignified conduct among its citizens when they think no one is watching. I know this because I once got sick enough of listening to ranchers complain about those slob hunters from the city that I took the trouble to pull up data on Graham, Cochise and Santa Cruz counties. The stats suggested that a fairly high level of shot up signs, thievery and vandalism should be expected just based on who's living there. SE Az ranchers don't have to look to the cities to bring in bad actors. They're growing them at home.
Also recognize that responsible shooters and hunters go largely unnoticed while screw-ups leave evidence they've been around.
Philospher Eric Hoffer put it this way: "There is a tendency to judge a race, a naton or any distinct group by its least worthy members." Unless you have some means of measuring the behavior and character of hunters are a whole, you're simply giving us a read on who you're living among.
I'm not usually one for rants and raves, but this subject is a pretty sore point with me.
Reason I'm asking is that Az Game and Fish hasn't issued any doe tags to the general public in several decades. Someone who explains shooting a sculpture thinking it was a doe is confessing to intending to commit a crime. Most likely he was simply lying to you, and you should have called it in to the sheriff's department.
Seems whenever somebody with a gun commits vandalism, people want to say it was a hunter. Haven't you noticed there are a lot of people who just want to go out into the desert and shoot at things?
You say the majority of hunters are idiots. Unless you know of some formal study measuring the I.Q.'s of hunters, you're evidently basing your sweeping assessment on personal experience. One's perspective tends to be influenced by the members of any group one is exposed to. The hunters I know are businessmen, engineers, lawyers, judges, teachers, biologists, building contractors and otherwise gainfully employed people who do not turn into morons when they go into the mountains and deserts. If I just went by the ones I know, I'd have to conclude that hunters are smarter, wealthier and more responsible than the average person. Of course, I know better. And I'm sure my perspective would be different if I were mainly exposed to the people who roam the back roads of Cochise County with guns looking for stuff to shoot at. The social data (school performance, crime rates and other metrics for social and economic well-being) for Cochise would not lead one to expect particularly dignified conduct among its citizens when they think no one is watching. I know this because I once got sick enough of listening to ranchers complain about those slob hunters from the city that I took the trouble to pull up data on Graham, Cochise and Santa Cruz counties. The stats suggested that a fairly high level of shot up signs, thievery and vandalism should be expected just based on who's living there. SE Az ranchers don't have to look to the cities to bring in bad actors. They're growing them at home.
Also recognize that responsible shooters and hunters go largely unnoticed while screw-ups leave evidence they've been around.
Philospher Eric Hoffer put it this way: "There is a tendency to judge a race, a naton or any distinct group by its least worthy members." Unless you have some means of measuring the behavior and character of hunters are a whole, you're simply giving us a read on who you're living among.
I'm not usually one for rants and raves, but this subject is a pretty sore point with me.
You state you position well and as I said I have a few guys that I let hunt. in 29 http://www.azgfd.gov/h_f/hunting_units_29.shtml
We get the best and the worst..late draws that have no idea how steep it is and that they will run into the Klumps (google them and cochise county hunting) so it all ends up with the big sections being off limits to your average hunter creating more interaction with guys like me.The kid who shot my Gorrilla ( I am a pretty bad welder so it sort of had a boney looking skull) was hunting on a type of junior permit.From the wash he came out of at sunrise it might have looked like a deer I guess. My experience is first hand and evolves me coming up to campsites and telling armed men to leave if they came without asking.It does not go well sometimes after beer o'clock.
. My experience is first hand and evolves me coming up to campsites and telling armed men to leave if they came without asking.It does not go well sometimes after beer o'clock.
I read somewhere that percentage wise more game wardens are shot than police. Makes sense as everyone is armed and alcohol is part of a lot of hunters fun. So Jerry, keep your head down.
Reason I'm asking is that Az Game and Fish hasn't issued any doe tags to the general public in several decades. Someone who explains shooting a sculpture thinking it was a doe is confessing to intending to commit a crime. Most likely he was simply lying to you, and you should have called it in to the sheriff's department.
Seems whenever somebody with a gun commits vandalism, people want to say it was a hunter. Haven't you noticed there are a lot of people who just want to go out into the desert and shoot at things?
You say the majority of hunters are idiots. Unless you know of some formal study measuring the I.Q.'s of hunters, you're evidently basing your sweeping assessment on personal experience. One's perspective tends to be influenced by the members of any group one is exposed to. The hunters I know are businessmen, engineers, lawyers, judges, teachers, biologists, building contractors and otherwise gainfully employed people who do not turn into morons when they go into the mountains and deserts. If I just went by the ones I know, I'd have to conclude that hunters are smarter, wealthier and more responsible than the average person. Of course, I know better. And I'm sure my perspective would be different if I were mainly exposed to the people who roam the back roads of Cochise County with guns looking for stuff to shoot at. The social data (school performance, crime rates and other metrics for social and economic well-being) for Cochise would not lead one to expect particularly dignified conduct among its citizens when they think no one is watching. I know this because I once got sick enough of listening to ranchers complain about those slob hunters from the city that I took the trouble to pull up data on Graham, Cochise and Santa Cruz counties. The stats suggested that a fairly high level of shot up signs, thievery and vandalism should be expected just based on who's living there. SE Az ranchers don't have to look to the cities to bring in bad actors. They're growing them at home.
Also recognize that responsible shooters and hunters go largely unnoticed while screw-ups leave evidence they've been around.
Philospher Eric Hoffer put it this way: "There is a tendency to judge a race, a naton or any distinct group by its least worthy members." Unless you have some means of measuring the behavior and character of hunters are a whole, you're simply giving us a read on who you're living among.
I'm not usually one for rants and raves, but this subject is a pretty sore point with me.
You're right - they may not all be idiots, but they're definitely overcompensating for a shortage in another department!!!!! I don't care that I have no statistics to back that up either!
Hunters like our forum friend Don and family are great sportsmen.Likewise trappers like Ted's brother in New Mexico do things right.I am not crazy about either hunting or trapping management by Game and Fish. They Are giving out too many permits,focusing on trophy hunting( like the BS introduction of Sheep in the Catalina's and the following slaughter of lions for being lions and not including environmentalists in the discussion.
A very good friend of mine, a hunter and a native of New Mexico hooked up with a guide service up in Northern New Mexico because it pay's so well to babysit the "upper class" hunters of today. He had to quit and leave the $ behind because it wasn't hunting, it was just setting up these big shot city boy's for a kill. Yes, there's a difference between hunting and killing, a BIG one.
OK, I'm back after spending several hours trying to get radio signals from sheep collars in the Catalinas. More about that later.
To Kenny, I will admit that some people I know do go on guided hunts out of state, but most of my friends do not, and I don't know anyone who hires a guide to hunt in Arizona, even for sheep. It isn't necessary. More important, we're fanatical warriors against over-commercialization of hunting, including landowner tags in Arizona. For the most part, the Az Game & Fish Commissioners we've had over the years have supported us in this. Unlike New Mexico, Colorado, Utah and some other Western states, Arizona does not have a lot of large private ranches that can use hunting opportunity to leverage landowner tags from the state, but they can deny access to any except the clients of outfitters they've contracted with and get tens of thousands of dollars each year from deep-pocketed out-of-state hunters. The O.R.O. up in your neck of the woods (a ways north of you around Anvil Rock Rd) is one of the major exceptions. This amounts to selling the state's wildlife, which is wrong because free-ranging wildlife should belong to the people of Arizona, and it does under current statute. And some ranchers who lease most of their grazing land from the US govt. happen to own small parcels where they can put up gates and deny the public access to state and federal lands beyond. In Cochise County, for example, people have climbed over the gate leading into John Long Canyon thinking their several-mile hike up the forest service road will be rewarded with an under-hunted whitetail area, only to find a bunch of campers and trailers occupied by the clients of the an outfitter who has an arrangement with the landowner who put up the gate. This is federal land, and the wildlife belongs to the people, but in order to enjoy what's yours you must first pay the guy running the toll gate operation. Much or all of the Winchester, Santa Teresa, Peloncillo and Swisshelm Mountains have become the private preserves or pay-to-play areas for landowners who pay no more taxes on it than the rest of us but are able to block motorized access. Try visiting the Geronimo surrender site in the Chiricahuas, on Coronado Natl. Forest land, and see how many doors you have to knock on to get through gates, and how many will let you through. The solution, of course, is for the federal govt. to buy right-of-way from willing sellers, but funding for that sort of thing seldom makes it through the budget process. At the county level, where responsibility lies for providing road access to the boundaries of federal lands, politicians couldn't care less about the public's right to get into the national forest, don't want to ruffle local feathers and are glad to accept exclusive access from landowners as a favor. Even the Klumps, who Jerry mentioned, have been known to grant access to at least one politician I know of.
Since the Az Constitution doesn't mention wildlife, all governance is under statute, which means we have to tread somewhat lightly around this issue given that the ranching community has far more clout around the state capitol than Arizona's sportsmen. In the meantime, many of the ranchers who do allow access are receiving a lot sportsmen's dollars in exchange for experiencing some inconveniences and for not being jerks.
If I ever meet up with you guys in person, over some beers I'll name names of govt. officials who benefit from the current situation. That assumes, of course, that you'd even want to get me started on these topics.
As for the sheep thing, Jerry you should know that Game & Fish and Az Desert Bighorn Sheep Society put together an advisory council comprised of all interested environmental groups, and the reintroduction plan and ground rules reflect what they and the environmentalists agreed upon. The green groups were Center for Biological Diversity, Sky Island Alliance, The Az Wilderness Coalition and Az Wilderness Society. To my great surprise, the environmentalists have actually become strong supporters of the reintroduction effort, although they're taking major heat from some of their financial donors and members who don't know the details of the project. As you've seen, lions are eating the sheep at a record pace, and it remains to be seen whether the reintroduction is a folly, but if nothing else a great deal is being learned here, including the fact that hunters and environmentalists can actually work together, something I wouldn't have predicted.
And MIS2810, I've gotta ask: What's a BIL?[/quot. Brother in law. No Game and Fish fan here....they handled ever cat or bear issue I know about by shooting the animals......what they have done to the Lions in Arrivipa
audsley said:
OK, I'm back after spending several hours trying to get radio signals from sheep collars in the Catalinas. More about that later.
I have mixed feeling about the big ranches (the kings game preserves) and the huge conservation ranches Joe Austin is buying up around Turkey Creek and to the north..No one gets in.It just makes it hard for a hunter to do the right thing...trouble then follows.After your 80 year old windmill gets shot up a few times by locked out hunters you just start getting pissed.
The New Mexico story is just an outrage.[/quote]
Brother-in-law. Spends his entire life monitoring his web cams for deer, scouting, shooting at anything that moves. Obsession to the point of ignoring his wife and children. His whole family and all his friends are the same way. Live and breathe hunting anything. The house looks like a zoo graveyard.
Hunters like our forum friend Don and family are great sportsmen.Likewise trappers like Ted's brother in New Mexico do things right.I am not crazy about either hunting or trapping management by Game and Fish. They Are giving out too many permits,focusing on trophy hunting( like the BS introduction of Sheep in the Catalina's and the following slaughter of lions for being lions and not including environmentalists in the discussion.
I watched a hour long show the other night about a guy who went along on a tagging mission of a big cat in the relocation zone. After netting and putting a collar on the big cat with the sole purpose to see if he was killing sheep, he was as good as dead. They were alerted that he had made a kill and went in to see what it had killed and were relieved to find it was a deer, this time. http://azstarnet.com/news/local/mt-lion-blamed-for-death-of-th-bighorn-in-catalinas/article_4f8f6ee1-a0f4-53fa-9e8a-dd180273f17a.html
EDIT..
Just woke up and right off remembered they didn't net the big cat, they netted the Sheep. They put dogs on the cat and they had him surrounded on open ground, not treed as there were none. A very dangerous situation to be sure but after pulling the dogs back some they darted him successfully.
Reason I'm asking is that Az Game and Fish hasn't issued any doe tags to the general public in several decades. Someone who explains shooting a sculpture thinking it was a doe is confessing to intending to commit a crime. Most likely he was simply lying to you, and you should have called it in to the sheriff's department.
Seems whenever somebody with a gun commits vandalism, people want to say it was a hunter. Haven't you noticed there are a lot of people who just want to go out into the desert and shoot at things?
You say the majority of hunters are idiots. Unless you know of some formal study measuring the I.Q.'s of hunters, you're evidently basing your sweeping assessment on personal experience. One's perspective tends to be influenced by the members of any group one is exposed to. The hunters I know are businessmen, engineers, lawyers, judges, teachers, biologists, building contractors and otherwise gainfully employed people who do not turn into morons when they go into the mountains and deserts. If I just went by the ones I know, I'd have to conclude that hunters are smarter, wealthier and more responsible than the average person. Of course, I know better. And I'm sure my perspective would be different if I were mainly exposed to the people who roam the back roads of Cochise County with guns looking for stuff to shoot at. The social data (school performance, crime rates and other metrics for social and economic well-being) for Cochise would not lead one to expect particularly dignified conduct among its citizens when they think no one is watching. I know this because I once got sick enough of listening to ranchers complain about those slob hunters from the city that I took the trouble to pull up data on Graham, Cochise and Santa Cruz counties. The stats suggested that a fairly high level of shot up signs, thievery and vandalism should be expected just based on who's living there. SE Az ranchers don't have to look to the cities to bring in bad actors. They're growing them at home.
Also recognize that responsible shooters and hunters go largely unnoticed while screw-ups leave evidence they've been around.
Philospher Eric Hoffer put it this way: "There is a tendency to judge a race, a naton or any distinct group by its least worthy members." Unless you have some means of measuring the behavior and character of hunters are a whole, you're simply giving us a read on who you're living among.
I'm not usually one for rants and raves, but this subject is a pretty sore point with me.
Audsley: Well said, but, my friends are professional businessmen who love nothing more than to have their dogs run a lion up a tree, and then stand there and and shoot it, no skill, no hunt, no effort, just fat out of shape men with nothing more to do than kill something. These hunters also use cameras, feeders, scents….. to lure their prey. I laughed out loud at them for buying multiple 50lb sacks of feed to lure the deer. Jesus, the bloodlust must be so strong they cannot think straight. Oh yeah, another favorite of theirs is to call "varmints" in and shoot the animal that appears-just to let it lie there. The story goes on & on. I grew up hunting all game in Arizona but have over the years stopped completely because I view it as needless killing. Hunting might have been necessary for human survival in prehistoric times, but today most hunters stalk and kill animals merely for the thrill of it, not out of necessity. Pure & simple, it is blood-entertainment.
I have become a huge trap & skeet fan, have a lot of fun with it, can outshoot any of the average hunters out there, use my guns often and do not have to participate in blood-lust entertainment.
My brothers dogs were trapped and left to die by a trapper that did not check his traps for three days a few months ago.....chewed their legs half off and had to be put down..... there will be blood.....
Audsley: Well said, but, my friends are professional businessmen who love nothing more than to have their dogs run a lion up a tree, and then stand there and and shoot it, no skill, no hunt, no effort, just fat out of shape men with nothing more to do than kill something. These hunters also use cameras, feeders, scents….. to lure their prey. I laughed out loud at them for buying multiple 50lb sacks of feed to lure the deer. Jesus, the bloodlust must be so strong they cannot think straight. Oh yeah, another favorite of theirs is to call "varmints" in and shoot the animal that appears-just to let it lie there. The story goes on & on. I grew up hunting all game in Arizona but have over the years stopped completely because I view it as needless killing. Hunting might have been necessary for human survival in prehistoric times, but today most hunters stalk and kill animals merely for the thrill of it, not out of necessity. Pure & simple, it is blood-entertainment.
I have become a huge trap & skeet fan, have a lot of fun with it, can outshoot any of the average hunters out there, use my guns often and do not have to participate in blood-lust entertainment.
Trophy? Trophy, are you kidding me? I have dozens of trophies I won playing golf, where the "kill" had as much chance to win as I did.
When I was a kid, I was with some kids and we were squirrel hunting. I shot one and he fell inside the trunk and I could hear him in there
as he slowly died. I vowed then and there I would never shoot anything again, unless it was trying to shoot me.
It has been over 50 years since the army took back my musket and I have never held a gun of any type since. I believe in the right to own them,
I just prefer not to. I guess I'm just not a man.
So-called land management and the arguments on various sides is a very tangled web, but I must agree that it might be good to start with trophy hunting, which has no place in any ethical aspect of humanity.
Very cool video. We have an interest in wolves enjoy seeing positive feedback about them. The type of hunting and shooting I like involves binoculars and shooting pics & video. Went to Mesa Center for the Arts recently and saw The Hidden Life of Wolves. Enjoyed every minute of it. Wolves are very misunderstood animals. http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/specials/nat-geo-live-specials/dutcher-wolves-lecture-nglive/
We have 2 Siberian Husky/Wolf hybrids. They are great pets and very trustworthy members of our family. Had to delete photo. Dogs were afraid they would get beat up.:)
Wolves are amazing animals, and -- along with mountain lions and other animals that have been eradicated by hunters -- would help to bring nature back into balance. Cattle ranchers, however, have other plans, as well as hunters who often consider it their noble purpose to cleanse the resulting overpopulation of remaining critters.
These pictures were shot from the back door of the cabin I live in and through the screen on my porch.... I could, but I won't.... like dirtsufer, I also stopped hunting years ago. There's a nice Buck off to the left and out of site in the picture on the bottom with the four doe's in it.
I used to have a book on the history of hunting in the US which had some incredible photos from the past. One I vividly recall showed a couple of hunters along with their guides proudly standing in front of a barn with the side completely covered in dead birds, phesants, ducks, geese and small animals. The foreground was covered with deer, elk, bear and big cats.
I hunted turkey in New Mexico. I enjoyed being in the woods in the early spring but I did it for the feathers. The pueblo indians use the feathers in a variety of ceremonies and in their costumes for feast day. Not the long wing or tail feathers as much as the smaller squared off breast and back feathers. One of the caciques was a good friend and it was a pleasure to see the look on his face when I would give him the feathers. We were sitting in front of his kiva during feast day one year and he swept his hand across in front of him gesturing to the crowd of dancers on the plaza and said to me : "See all those feathers out there? You gave us all of them". I failed to get a bird one year and Ray was mad at me. He said 'You have to ask the maker for it' and I replied 'Ray I don't know how to ask' so he taught me how to ask. That year I had a bird within 30 minutes of arriving in the canyon we hunted. Now that's good hunting and hunting for good!
Had a call one day from a friend asking if I wanted to go down to the Gila with him, immediately. Said a guide he knew had treed a cat and was holding it in the tree with his dogs looking for someone that wanted to shoot it. I declined the invite but he went on an 8 hour drive, then horseback and shot it with a .357 revolver right in the tree. Paid the guide quite a sum for the privledge too. It was an old cat with broken teeth. He kept the skull on his desk. Now that's bad hunting.
Hunting (as managed by Fish and Game) serves a valuable purpose -- it helps keep the checks and balances that Nature intended somewhat in place now that so many natural predators have been taken out of the picture. Although I don't hunt, never have, I don't have issue with it as some here do. I do have issues with trophy hunts, in the sense that some guy with lots of money pays a game ranch big bucks to go to their managed property and kill an exotic animal just for the pure sport of it. However, no issue with guys that apply for and get drawn for their hunting permit, go out and shoot a deer, elk, whatever and then dress it out and have it butchered to feed their families. Without that check and balance in place, you have deer herds multiplying so rapidly that they A) starve to death and B) become a danger to the public at large. Dangerous how? Just ask Michigan.
"Car-deer crashes are a year-round problem in Michigan. During 2012, there were 48,918 reported car-deer crashes in this state. That translates into one car-deer crash every nine minutes. These crashes are at least a $130 million a year problem in this state. The average car-deer crash causes about $2,100 in damage, usually to the front end, often leaving the vehicle undriveable. Car-deer crashes are not only costly, they are deadly. In 2012, 8 persons were killed in crashes with deer. Another 1,329 were injured. The most serious crashes occur when motorists swerve to avoid a deer and hit another vehicle or fixed object, such as a tree."
Michigan isn't the only place this is a big problem. Herd management (hunting) is the key to keeping it in check.
Well thinking about shooting the 3 big Javalina that fought with my dogs this morning but now
that my honey has named them they cannot be killed....
When's the BBQ? I'll bring the coleslaw... homemade, of course! :D
You need different dogs, Jerry. Hello, Mr. Dogo Argentino! These truly are amazing, powerful dogs, specific purpose breed, from over 13 breeds of dogs. They don't like Porky. Not at all. Some very interesting reading out there on them and their history.
Well thinking about shooting the 3 big Javalina that fought with my dogs this morning but now
that my honey has named them they cannot be killed....
Not that I'm advocating killing the Javelina, but I would protect my dogs from anything or anyone. So Jerry, if you change your mind, you can add those 3 Javelina to the 6 stuffed ones my brother-in-law has hanging on the wall in the house with all the turkeys, foxes, deer, big horn sheep, elk, bears, rabbits, etc.
Not that I'm advocating killing the Javelina, but I would protect my dogs from anything or anyone. So Jerry, if you change your mind, you can add those 3 Javelina to the 6 stuffed ones my brother-in-law has hanging on the wall in the house with all the turkeys, foxes, deer, big horn sheep, elk, bears, rabbits, etc.
Jerry knows that Javalina don't go looking to attack dogs, it's the other way around. Heck, even if he did shot those three, there would be more coming along in short order. I have them all around me up this way, I've even seen them hanging around Whiskey Row, the court house plaza and at the the college where I work.. The baby's are so damn cute that if they stayed that way, people would make them pets.http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=baby javelina pictures&qpvt=baby javelina pictures&FORM=IGRE
Jerry knows that Javalina don't go looking to attack dogs, it's the other way around. Heck, even if he did shot those three, there would be more coming along in short order. I have them all around me up this way, I've even seen them hanging around Whiskey Row, the court house plaza and at the the college where I work.. The baby's are so damn cute that if they stayed that way, people would make them pets.http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=baby javelina pictures&qpvt=baby javelina pictures&FORM=IGRE
Bring lots of sauce!! You can eat them if you want, but their not pigs and they certainly don't taste like them either.
Hello, Mr. Gregory Peccary! I've eaten them at Mexican fiestas. They dig a big pit, dump in a lot of hot, burning mesquite charcoal, in goes the javelina, add dirt back on top. Dig him back up the next day and viola! Fiesta pig! Very yummy, actually.
Jerry knows that Javalina don't go looking to attack dogs, it's the other way around. Heck, even if he did shot those three, there would be more coming along in short order. I have them all around me up this way, I've even seen them hanging around Whiskey Row, the court house plaza and at the the college where I work.. The baby's are so damn cute that if they stayed that way, people would make them pets.http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=baby javelina pictures&qpvt=baby javelina pictures&FORM=IGRE
We had them rooting around outside our office windows when I worked at Scottsdale Fashion Square in the heart of downtown, Scottsdale and Camelback. They ain't skeered of anything!
We had them rooting around outside our office windows when I worked at Scottsdale Fashion Square in the heart of downtown, Scottsdale and Camelback. They ain't skeered of anything!
They don't look for trouble, but they do believe in Florida's "stand your ground" law.... They can't see worth a hoot! Stand still and make like a tree downwind, and they'll walk right by you, stop, and then wonder where that human smell is coming from behind them.
Hunting (as managed by Fish and Game) serves a valuable purpose -- it helps keep the checks and balances that Nature intended somewhat in place now that so many natural predators have been taken out of the picture. Although I don't hunt, never have, I don't have issue with it as some here do. I do have issues with trophy hunts, in the sense that some guy with lots of money pays a game ranch big bucks to go to their managed property and kill an exotic animal just for the pure sport of it. However, no issue with guys that apply for and get drawn for their hunting permit, go out.
Agree. In view of the unfortunate culling of natural predators, and as long as people put meat on their plates, hunting responsibly can actually be a way more humane alternative than buying your horrifically-factory-grown-and-slaughtered, neatly packaged protein of choice.
Stuart: a good trivia question is to ask which animal kills the most people in the U.S., the answer is deer. But of course, when you shoot & poison the wolf population, kill most of the bears and eradicate the lions & coyotes the natural balance is upset and makes for a strong argument that we need to control the population.
Stuart: a good trivia question is to ask which animal kills the most people in the U.S., the answer is deer. But of course, when you shoot & poison the wolf population, kill most of the bears and eradicate the lions & coyotes the natural balance is upset and makes for a strong argument that we need to control the population.
I would have answered the question "humans." Wait, need to rethink this. We're lower than animals...we kill for fun.
These guys are in Candy Kitchen, NM and are doing great things for wolf awareness. They do educational presentations in the Southwest that are really cool. Went to one in Pinetop last year and was very impressed. Talked a lot about the Mexican Gray Wolf reintroduction program. http://www.wildspiritwolfsanctuary.org/index.php
Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:15 AM...The Arizona Republic editorial board was absolutely correct in pointing out that Arizona's wildlife belong to all. The process of coming together to achieve a great act of repatriation is difficult and it can be messy, but bighorn sheep and mountain lions can ultimately coexist in a naturally functioning ecosystem, as they have done for centuries. The magnificent desert bighorn sheep is an important missing component of the biodiversity of the Santa Catalina Mountains, and the individuals working as a coalition in conservation deserve our respect for trying to restore the bighorn population on behalf of all citizens. Larry D. Voyles is director of the Arizona Game and Fish Department. http://www.azcentral.com/opinions/articles/20131226desert-bighorn-sheep-catalina-mountains-game-fish-voyles.html
Some of the hunting ranches in Sonora put out trails of food that lure the sheep up on a ridge line where a Jackson Hole Ahole is waiting in ambush to kill what is basically a zoo animal.I sort of have no problem with this amusement park style hunting but then again I am not a sheep. http://gothunts.com/mexico-desert-bighorn-sheep-hunt/
It's not fish and game that's makes a lot of money off the Sheep as they only give out about 160 tags a year in a draw. Now the outfitters, that's another story.http://www.arizonahunting.net/bighornsheep.htm
If you need a desert bighorn sheep for the Slam and don't want to pay $60,000 for a hunt in Mexico, contact us!
Karma seems to have worked its magic on the New Mexico dog killer ( a good but long story). And it looks like Audsley may be having some luck with the Tucson Bighorn herd relocation.I saw what we are pretty sure was sheep shat on Edwin road last week..another relocation effort is happening north of Tucson today too....kids from Central America!The protesters blocked a YMCA camp bus in their first protest last week.
“The odds of a sheep herd surviving long term in the Catalina Mountains are not good,” saidRicardo Small, a member of Friends of Wild Animals. “Conditions that led to the demise of the native bighorn sheep back in the 1990s are worse today, not better. The current program is a waste of bighorn sheep lives and the lives of mountain lions.”
If any of you are really interested in helping wolves, there are a couple opportunities coming up and believe me, they need our help immensely and this help needs to be done by attending meetings, writing emails, making phone calls....they are being attacked inhumanely and by any means necessary. Because of POLITICS, wolves have been taken of the ESA in some states, and the very next day were hunted. They can be shot on sight in most of Mont, Ida, Wisc, and Wy just got their hunting season taken away by a Fed judge because of what was going on. Idahell wants a predator hunting derby for the next five yrs with prizes to the most killed, pregnant, biggest,....and this is open to kids 8 and up. In Wis, they have gone over the "limit" in just 5 days of most of the sections to hunt wolves and in one, they shot twice as many as they were supposed to. In 5 days, 106 wolves.The pics they post are absolutely disgusting!!! In Idahell on the Sheriff's page, they have pics of cops with a sign that says SSS wolves, a shovel, and a rifle. Its absolutely disgusting and heartbreaking that they are killing any wolves seen which in turn breaks up the family unit and instead of having a pack take down large game they have to resort to killing what lone wolves can kill to live. Coexisting options are out there but there is so much ignorance and hatred that the ranchers (some) won't even try it. Here's some info to help fight back for Northern Rocky Wolves and don't forget our own Mexican Wolves. The proposal they have for then has nothing to do with science and will doom them.
Sally Jewell (sec of the int) 202-208-3100-- [email protected]
Dan Ashe (USFWS) 202-208-4717--- [email protected]
THUNDERCLAP http://bit.ly/1DqnvmC
NEW MEXICO MEETING NOV 13 @NORTHERN N M COLLEGE IN ESPANOLA NM --921 PASEO DE ONATE 87532 9AM-5PM
AZ MEETING AZ GAME AND FISH HEADQUARTERS
500 W CAREFREE HIGHWAY
PHX, AZ 85086
Please share this to all your friends on f/b and everywhere, we're headed for a 2nd extinction if they win.
Geez, is this thread back again? After the first go round, I lost all respect for several individuals I'd previously thought might actually know something.
Ranchers (the meat and dairy industry that Americans so cling to) don’t like wolves who eat their livestock, and hunters don’t like wolves who create a balance in nature that reduces the argument to cull deer. So yeah . . . the odds aren’t so good . . .
The White Mountain Wildlife & Nature Center in Pinetop-Lakeside will host the ever popular Wild Spirit Wolf Sanctuary for their Discovery Series this Saturday 8/15/2015. Wild Spirit Wolf Sanctuary focuses its efforts greatly on educating the general public about the wild wolf, wolves and wolf-dogs in captivity, and the difference between wild and domestic animals. http://www.wildspiritwolfsanctuary.org/index.php
Ranchers (the meat and dairy industry that Americans so cling to) don’t like wolves who eat their livestock, and hunters don’t like wolves who create a balance in nature that reduces the argument to cull deer. So yeah . . . the odds aren’t so good . . .
Overgrazing and the ongoing drought conditions is a big problem. Last fall Hawley Lake looked more like a mud puddle than a lake. Hope for rain and promote forest thinning.
Ok...been up in the mountains in New Mexico this week and am revising my view... disciplined,well financed outfitters are thinning the Lions in a responsible way that after 4 years is allowing the deer to come back.I myself wouldn't shoot a treed lion but it isn't a canned hunting experience.It is a well organized impressive team effort...the half assed trappers and weekend guys as in my area are the problem...
My "friends' purchase varmint permits on the San Carlos reservation and proceed to shoot everything that moves including coyotes, bobcats, mountain lions, raccoons, skunks......All animals are left where they fall. They also sometimes shoot over a hundred dove each on private property-they claim they only shoot the invasive collared doves. These birds are never touched-just left on the ground to rot.
My "friends' purchase varmint permits on the San Carlos reservation and proceed to shoot everything that moves including coyotes, bobcats, mountain lions, raccoons, skunks......All animals are left where they fall. They also sometimes shoot over a hundred dove each on private property-they claim they only shoot the invasive collared doves. These birds are never touched-just left on the ground to rot.
Yep...caught bow hunters in my barn finishing off a wounded Javelina..her baby cowering next to her...
My "friends' purchase varmint permits on the San Carlos reservation and proceed to shoot everything that moves including coyotes, bobcats, mountain lions, raccoons, skunks......All animals are left where they fall. They also sometimes shoot over a hundred dove each on private property-they claim they only shoot the invasive collared doves. These birds are never touched-just left on the ground to rot.
Seems like a heads up phone call or email with names to the San Carlos Apaches would be appropriate. Hopefully they will run the bastards off next time. They don't take kindly to that kind of crap on their land. I'm not one to rat somebody out but this is bullshit.
More about about San Carlos Apaches getting screwed over... http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-agent-orange-arizona-2017-story.html "The compound, known as Silvex, was deployed as part of a little-known test effort from 1961 to 1972 to wipe out water-hungry vegetation on the San Carlos Apache Reservation, part of a larger effort by the federal government to protect scarce groundwater in the newly booming city of Phoenix."
Seems like a heads up phone call or email with names to the San Carlos Apaches would be appropriate. Hopefully they will run the bastards off next time. They don't take kindly to that kind of crap on their land. I'm not one to rat somebody out but this is bullshit.
Actually the Tribe issues permits for Coyote kills, the problem is that the red blooded all American macho male get their jollies from killing.
Not to bemoan the point but I was at a barbecue last night and two guys were talking about the hunts they do on a private ranch in Texas, the ranch is right on the Rio Grande and sounds like it is loaded with game: "we usually stop on top of a bridge on the way in and shoot turtles for a while, then from the upper racks of the truck we try to pick off a few hogs we may see alongside the road" (which lay and rot) they all shoot at least one deer and take it, one turkey and hog (they typically keep the big game but not always), they also hang around the dump and shoot coyotes and then for night time fun bait raccoons with sardines to come near and then shoot them.
My last words on this issue: One of my best friends was an All American Football player in College and a big macho but sensitive guy who I took care of while he slowly died from cancer. My friend had hunted and fished everywhere but told me one day he had done enough killing in his life he said "you know, I have never killed anything out of necessity so I got to thinking that I was killing for fun, the thought of killing an animal purely for my own fun made me think a lot and killing for fun is not a happy or positive spot for anybody to be in". These words changed my attitude about the issue.
So because you don't believe in hunting we all should? I am so sick of the arrogant anti-hunters that think only their way to live is the correct way. Man has been harvesting animals for food since would could walk. Did you go to the supermarket this week and pick up some steak or hamburger? Did you go to Five Guys and get a juicy burger or hotdog? Because you are now separated from your food source you can get on your soap box and preach to us? Get lost. The animals you eat were killed by someone just not you. Get over yourself.
Your examples are acts of crimes and NO ONE I know does that. Millions upon millions of ethical and law abiding hunters have been smeared by your (dubious) broad brush. I call you out as a liar.
Couch warrior....snicker....the lack of training is obvious....I think each Hunter should have to go to a refresher seminar....be able to tell the difference between a cow and a bear for example..
Bobcats are worth about $350 a pelt...they hang bait and set up multiple traps underneath....slow death....for a lot of dogs too
I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers, but, a tanned, large, cat pelt barely fetches $500-$100 when sent to auction. They were in the $120-$160 range back in the early to mid '80s.
I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers, but, a tanned, large, cat pelt barely fetches $500-$100 when sent to auction. They were in the $120-$160 range back in the early to mid '80s.
right from a New Mexico trapper that hates this technique
right from a New Mexico trapper that hates this technique
He must be grinding it up as a supplement for rhino horn aphrodisiac and selling it to the Chinese! That's either a blatant lie, or selling to some retarded person as I alluded to.
Cats seldom overrun their prey. Rarely is a better word.
The picture I posted recently of the one I caught on my place, was, released. I'm sure that's not what you thought when I posted it, but that is the fact. When released, he just strolled off, I'm sure, exacting his revenge.
A year and a half or so later, he still follows along with me in the woods when I make a late night ride or walk along the property. I think he know it spooks me, but I mean him no harm unless he comes after my pooches. Since I don't expect that to happen, I'll miss his company in a few year...kind of. Creepy _ucker:D
He must be grinding it up as a supplement for rhino horn aphrodisiac and selling it to the Chinese! That's either a blatant lie, or selling to some retarded person as I alluded to.
Cats seldom overrun their prey. Rarely is a better word.
The picture I posted recently of the one I caught on my place, was, released. I'm sure that's not what you thought when I posted it, but that is the fact. When released, he just strolled off, I'm sure, exacting his revenge.
A year and a half or so later, he still follows along with me in the woods when I make a late night ride or walk along the property. I think he know it spooks me, but I mean him no harm unless he comes after my pooches. Since I don't expect that to happen, I'll miss his company in a few year...kind of. Creepy _ucker:D
The traps my brothers dogs were caught it was a hanging bait with six or seven traps under it....the part time trappers didn't come back for three days...they finally checked their traps and released the dogs who limped bome...one died...this pisses off the lion hunters too....their dogs get hurt and the hunts are effected....big money is lost. It Is getting real ugly
The traps my brothers dogs were caught it was a hanging bait with six or seven traps under it....the part time trappers didn't come back for three days...they finally checked their traps and released the dogs who limped bome...one died...this pisses off the lion hunters too....their dogs get hurt and the hunts are effected....big money is lost. It Is getting real ugly
Hanging hooks is a subhuman, and, unorthodox method, Jerry.
The fact that you disregard what lengths I've gone to to release untargeteded animals says all I need to say.
Try releasing a bobcat from a blind set(unintended target) and then get back with me.
So because you don't believe in hunting we all should? I am so sick of the arrogant anti-hunters that think only their way to live is the correct way. Man has been harvesting animals for food since would could walk. Did you go to the supermarket this week and pick up some steak or hamburger? Did you go to Five Guys and get a juicy burger or hotdog? Because you are now separated from your food source you can get on your soap box and preach to us? Get lost. The animals you eat were killed by someone just not you. Get over yourself.
Your examples are acts of crimes and NO ONE I know does that. Millions upon millions of ethical and law abiding hunters have been smeared by your (dubious) broad brush. I call you out as a liar.
You need to separate crime and wanton killing from hunting. Hopefully you can understand the difference. On the ranch in Texas EVERY hunter that comes from around the country shoots the hell out of everything. A rare sportsman hunter does come along once in a while. If you are not hunting & killing for necessity you are hunting and killing for fun. Which is it? The macho "hunters" who use dogs to run a mountain lion up a tree then stand under the tree and shoot the lion are part of your group as are the "varmint" hunters who kill wantonly for fun. This all is perfectly legal and part of your "hunting" you are so proud of. And by the way, I tell the exact truth from what the hunters tell me. Calling me a liar indicates your complete lack of understanding, knowledge or exposure to the subject. I am invited to the ranch in Texas in December and my friends shoot doves in Buckeye often. All of the stories I told are exactly what was discussed with me in encouragement to join along.
Hanging hooks is a subhuman, and, unorthodox method, Jerry.
The fact that you disregard what lengths I've gone to to release untargeteded animals says all I need to say.
Try releasing a bobcat from a blind set(unintended target) and then get back with me.
you deserved every scratch and bite you got .....again my beef is that except for the guided hunts the average hunger I run into is a hassle....either untrained or just lazy they have wrecked it for the good ones in my part of Cochise county....locked out...
you deserved every scratch and bite you got .....again my beef is that except for the guided hunts the average hunger I run into is a hassle....either untrained or just lazy they have wrecked it for the good ones in my part of Cochise county....locked out...
No bites, nor scratches.
Now, why would I deserve them?
You come up with this stuff knowing nothing of me or how I treat our wildlife resources. You never even had the ambition to ask how I hunted or why I set out traps around my house.
You automatically went to "he's a hunter, so he's a lowlife that deserves anything he gets when hunting". In other words, PETA talking points.
I meant no harm to true sportsmen but witness a lot of the other types. I do feel strongly that the bloodlust runs deep as I have done it myself in the past.
No bites, nor scratches.
Now, why would I deserve them?
You come up with this stuff knowing nothing of me or how I treat our wildlife resources. You never even had the ambition to ask how I hunted or why I set out traps around my house.
You automatically went to "he's a hunter, so he's a lowlife that deserves anything he gets when hunting". In other words, PETA talking points.
