I blew off looking at these threads 2 weeks ago, but since it's revived I'll tie up a couple of loose ends.
Roberto asked if I contacted Tim Steller of the Az Daily Star and brought him to this forum. Here's my answer.
A couple of years ago another reporter gave Tim my name as a possible source for a story involving wildlife and hunting in Arizona, and I spoke with him on the phone for a few minutes. I've never met him in person, and based on some of the things he's written, I suspect he and I are several degrees apart ideologically. But he does seem to be a smart reporter who digs for the truth, as he demonstrated with his story on local politics in Agua Prieta.
After the ruckus broke out in Saric and Penasco's police chief was shot under curious circumstances, and all the newspapers were parroting half-a$$ed government reports from both sides of the border, I sent Tim an email suggesting that people on the ground in Rocky Point were finding the official statements ridiculous and that he might do well to take a look at this forum. I believe I also mentioned a couple of names (which I'll withhold here for their protection) that I thought might make good sources for tamping down the hysteria and putting things in perspective. I don't know whether he contacted anyone at that time.
Then came the rolling gun battle on Fremont and the official statements that raised more questions than were answered, followed by Tim's report in the Star about the Las Conchas home invasion two days earlier that had gone unreported both in the news and on this forum. Having assured friends and co-workers for years that bullets flying through the city and home invasions at upscale tourist digs weren't part of the Rocky Point scene, I now wanted to know the truth.
Self-censorship among Mexican reporters is understandable given that narcos have shown their willingness to bump off those who probe too deeply, but U.S. reporters are presumably much safer. I sent Tim another email suggesting he might get some leads from this forum's habitues. It goes without saying that he would protect his sources, as reporters tend to do if only in their own self interest. And since each country's newspapers are read on both sides of the border, further illumination by the Star might prod Mexican officials to be a little more forthcoming.
I never expected that anyone in the know would spill their guts on this forum. What I'd hoped for was that someone would give Tim some back story and leads, and that we'd eventually get a more complete picture of how things are really working around Rocky Point. Whether or not anyone ever gave him any info I'll never know, nor should I.
Anything said publicly on this forum I'm disregarding as conjecture, rumor and in some cases possibly disinformation. I have no idea whether the shootout and home invasion were connected, or what events might have precipitated either incident, the ethnicity or lifestyle of the home invasion victims or anything else. I did not expect to learn any of those things directly from this forum.
Now I can only say that the city's future as a destination for U.S. tourists has been badly damaged. Rocky Point's reputation for being outside the drug corridor and free of the kinds of violence for which Mexico has become infamous is now shattered, and rehabilitating its image will take years. Anyone with half a brain should know that all the comparisons to violence in Phoenix or Aurora are entirely irrelevant. Human behavior is driven more by emotion than statistics, and few will take their families where they perceive any risk of suddenly finding themselves in a scene from a Robert Rodriguez movie. And while it's true there are bad people everywhere, Americans are accustomed to the support of such civil instutitions as a vigorous free press, responsive officials and a transparent and effective criminal justice system. Imperfect as U.S. systems may be, they nevertheless provide a sense of security, false or otherwise, that we don't have in foreign countries. When you're in Mexico, you're on your own, and if you're killed or simply disappear, you can't assume anyone will be made accountable. Those are Mexico's terms, taken them or leave them. Many people were already saying no to Mexico before the lastest "fiasco in Penasco."
As for me, I'll still go down for fishing with like-minded folks who are willing to accept some risk, but such folks will now be harder to find.
Audsley - I appreciate the points you are trying to make. But, anybody in their right mind who applies an ounce if logic would understand that these things happen everywhere. Just last night there was a shooting at the Cardinals stadium. Will people stop going now to the games? No, of course not. It's the infamous Arizona nativists and xenophobes who have brainwashed the public into thinking Mexico and all Mexicans are the boogeyman of the 21st century.
Audsley said, "As for me, I'll still go down for fishing with like-minded folks who are willing to accept some risk, but such folks will now be harder to find."
One would think that your statement would hold water. However, since that "incident" bookings and activity has generally increased, even in the heat and humidity.
I for one will be down there in late September and again in November. That shows how like-minded this old goat is. I lived through 25 years of working in downtown Cleveland.
What me worry? I believe there is someone elsewhere who controls this. No, NOT you Jerry. Audsley, tell the doubters to relax have a pickle and enjoy. Hope to see you there.
It's the infamous Arizona nativists and xenophobes who have brainwashed the public into thinking Mexico and all Mexicans are the boogeyman of the 21st century.
Actually, I think Mexico has done a pretty good job on its own in this regard. I have been coming to RP for over 20 years and will continue to come. I will also continue to bring my grandchildren. As always, I will be vigilante just as I am in AZ or anywhere else I go. I remember sitting on my patio a few yeas back with Mexican friends who were about to take over leadership of the city. They were asking me what I thought the American perspective was regarding Mexico. I told them the biggest fear was that the country would turn into a narco state as happened to Columbia in the 80's. They assured me that would nor could never happen there. It wasn't long after that conversation when human heads started showing up on the steps of municipal buildings throughout the country. The narco problem was ignored and swept under the rug rather than being aggressively addressed when perhaps a difference could have been made. I too had the same thought about the shooting outside of the football stadium last night. I think it will give some people pause but not enough to make any difference. Sadly, that is not the case with Mexico. I wasn't consciously aware of the fact but I adopted Russ's attitude quite a while back of accepting the fact there were people/attitudes that were so negative it didn't matter what you said to them they would just never change minds. Unfortunately everything in Mexico, and particularly RP, is under a magnifying glass. You can't ignore reality.
"I lived through 25 years of working in downtown Cleveland.". . .
Well, that does explain your perspective. I remember walking that tunnel between the Terminal Tower and the trains, or behind the Bond Court Building after working late, or other, less-than-safe, secluded places downtown to be enroute from work. I am among those who are not ready to run from RP to the hidey hole. In fact, on this current visit, ran into renters on the beach who were house hunting. If the recent incident was indeed isolated, I'm betting on a better outlook.
Things are really picking up in the lot buying/design/consult world for the first time in 5 years in Santo Tomas...I think it is the coastal highway,the Puerto Lobos vicinity thing,the fact we have our own quarries and cabinet shop plus a restaurant has now opened in the Ejido! You people spooked by the city vibe need to come down to Santo Tomas...
Having been raised in New York City....traveling the subways for years....and also driving a taxi for a bit in Phoenix.....I am not particularly concerned with the occasional violence that may occur in Penasco, or in any other city, including in the US.
My concern has always been shootouts between cartels or between the cartel and police/military...that is when innocent bystanders get hurt....people in the right place at the wrong time (not wrong place at the wrong time). Anyone who doesn't believe the cartels control Mexico, including Penasco, needs a reality check.....
One of the "stories" on the recent episode led me to believe that it was a running gun battle, first between 2 opposing cartels, followed by one between the police and one of the cartels. The other "story" was different (although I really believe it should be reported accurately in the news...and it might be, if it happened in the US) and put a completely different twist on it. But this isn't the US! There were several posts that provided misinformation or misdirection (I loved the "Greek" stuff), etc., either intentional or by accident, and I can see the confusion. I can also see why some of the "people in the know" prefer not to get into it....and I believe it isn't because of their personal "business" self interest....
I am satisfied with the version I believe is the "real story"....my interpretation of what I read....(if you read the posts in this thread, and a couple others, you'll "get it")...I'm actually relieved...and will be coming down again in the future.....including with my kids and grandkids.
I'm also not saying that may not change some time in the future if conditions change!
"I lived through 25 years of working in downtown Cleveland.". . .
Well, that does explain your perspective. I remember walking that tunnel between the Terminal Tower and the trains, or behind the Bond Court Building after working late, or other, less-than-safe, secluded places downtown to be enroute from work. I am among those who are not ready to run from RP to the hidey hole. In fact, on this current visit, ran into renters on the beach, house hunting. If the recent incident was indeed isolated, I'm betting on a better outlook.
Southbeacher...I worked at 71st & Euclid. It was pure excitement especially when I had to run the night shift for two years.
I would say the 60's riots were a particularly low point. The city was burning and it was scary. There were some funny times.
We had two big garage doors on the side street and in the hot summer, they were left open. The hookers would parade in one
door and when you hustled them out, they would parade in the other. Actually got to know them on a first name basis.
I was definately relieved when they moved it out to Beachwood.
It's the infamous Arizona nativists and xenophobes who have brainwashed the public into thinking Mexico and all Mexicans are the boogeyman of the 21st century.
Actually, I think Mexico has done a pretty good job on its own in this regard. I have been coming to RP for over 20 years and will continue to come. I will also continue to bring my grandchildren. As always, I will be vigilante just as I am in AZ or anywhere else I go. I remember sitting on my patio a few yeas back with Mexican friends who were about to take over leadership of the city. They were asking me what I thought the American perspective was regarding Mexico. I told them the biggest fear was that the country would turn into a narco state as happened to Columbia in the 80's. They assured me that would nor could never happen there. It wasn't long after that conversation when human heads started showing up on the steps of municipal buildings throughout the country. The narco problem was ignored and swept under the rug rather than being aggressively addressed when perhaps a difference could have been made. I too had the same thought about the shooting outside of the football stadium last night. I think it will give some people pause but not enough to make any difference. Sadly, that is not the case with Mexico. I wasn't consciously aware of the fact but I adopted Russ's attitude quite a while back of accepting the fact there were people/attitudes that were so negative it didn't matter what you said to them they would just never change minds. Unfortunately everything in Mexico, and particularly RP, is under a magnifying glass. You can't ignore reality.
I don't think I'm ignoring reality. I feel there are different facets to this entire situation. First and foremost, it's about the Mexican people and their everyday lives. My husband is Mexican and his whole family lives in Mexico. I feel terrible about what's been happening to the country - tourism aside. People live their everyday lives in fear, although sometimes they do have a tendency to exagerate a situation. I love Mexico - I love the history, the people, the culture, the food, the music, etc. Nothing will ever change that for me, narcos be damned.
I take issue with the fact that a majority of Americans (especially Arizonans) feel superior to Mexico and Mexicans in general. The arrogance of someone like Rick D'Amico, and millions of others like him outside of the public eye, act as though they have the right to take one incident in one small part of a huge country and say, "LOOK! LOOK how horrible Mexico and Mexicans are!" The audacity, the ignorance, of someone like Rick D'Amico or Joe Arpaio - both of Italian descent (as I am also) to point the finger and look down on Mexicans astounds me). It wasn't too long ago that anyone of Italian descent was thought to be part of the Mafia. I'm using Rick D'Amico and Arpaio as examples only. Of course this attitude is not limited to Italian Americans. It hurts me that people feel that all Mexicans and all of Mexico are horribly violent people and places.
Americans in general, (yes, I'm also stereotyping) are known for their close-mindedness about other cultures. Note: I did not use the word ignorance, although it fits. Americans think of Mexico as only two places: dirty border towns, or resort towns like Cancun and Puerto Vallarta. Most know nothing of the beauty and culture in between. The history, the plazas, the indigenous culture that still permeates everyday life in a lot of places. The mountains, the volcanos, the farms, the pyramids, etc.
I do own a pair of rose colored glasses, but I take them off long enough to know that there's no place or country on earth that is perfect. For me, the U.S. has turned into a place with so many of its own problems, corruption, crime and general craziness that nobody knows how to deal with. So what happens? They stick their heads in the sand about their own problems and look to blame "the others". This is history repeating itself all over again - only this time it's the Mexicans turn to take the blame.
Sorry for the rant. I hope you all understand what I'm trying to say. :)
I blew off looking at these threads 2 weeks ago, but since it's revived I'll tie up a couple of loose ends.
he does seem to be a smart reporter who digs for the truth, as he demonstrated with his story on local politics in Agua Prieta.
How in the world would you know if it was the TRUTH or not??????? He, like others, digs for whatever he can find to write a story, one preferrable that will increase intereset and readers to his employer and usually one that cannot be confirmed or disconfirmed because sources " remain anonymous because they were not authorized to release information" ( I love that one)
tamping down the hysteria and putting things in perspective. I don't know whether he contacted anyone at that time.
Well he would do that if it increased reader interest but not likely, more the obverse, hysteria sells newspapers.
, I now wanted to know the truth.
So a reporter will find the truth ? Ja ja ja ja very funny, very funny. You still don't get it. Talk to everyone involved and you will get as many different stories as people you talk to. That's the TRUTH.
get a more complete picture of how things are really working around Rocky Point.
Well send me a PM and I'll give you a complete picture, I've got several versions of the complete picture from several different locals in the know on all sides of the story which sides at last count were 4 or 5 depending... Carnac knows, all it's in the envelope but I think he got an exclusive contract with Stratford so you will have to subsribe.
Anything said publicly on this forum I'm disregarding as conjecture, rumor and in some cases possibly disinformation.
Hmmm, but if it comes out of the mouth of a reported it's good, hard, solid, useful, accurate information ?? Ja ja ja ja another funny.
I have no idea whether the shootout and home invasion were connected, or what events might have precipitated either incident, the ethnicity or lifestyle of the home invasion victims or anything else. I did not expect to learn any of those things directly from this forum.
Now I can only say that the city's future as a destination for U.S. tourists has been badly damaged.
Rocky Point's reputation for being outside the drug corridor and free of the kinds of violence for which Mexico has become infamous is now shattered,
Shattered, wow, just like that in one swoop, shattered. Glad you tied up that loose end, wow and I did not even know it was loose. !!
and rehabilitating its image will take years. Anyone with half a brain should know that all the comparisons to violence in Phoenix or Aurora are entirely irrelevant. H
And most with a whole brain will put these events into perspective.1
Many people were already saying no to Mexico before the lastest "fiasco in Penasco."
Hey you and wahoo ought to get together what with his "Massacre" line he fed to the press.
Audsley - I'm going to use my "half of a brain" to tell you why comparing incidents of violence in Mexico and Phoenix are irrelevant, although it's not going to be the comparison your "half a brain" can comprehend.
In Phoenix and in the US more innocents get killed in every incident of violence than in Mexico where 9 times out of 10, it's bad guys killing bad guys. Yes, there are innocents that get killed in Mexico also - but people get hit by cars everyday too.
If you think RP's image is shattered then good for you - you obviously found your answers. Have a nice life in Gilbert, Mesa, or wherever the hell you're from. Just remember when you stop at the Circle K at the corner of Whitebread Rd. and Ham Sandwich Avenue for your 44 oz. Thirstbuster of Diet Coke that some white guy might snap and blow away 10 or 15 people.
WTF does this have to do with me Mondone? There are only a few people on here that I find credible and Lagrimas happens to be one of them. Did it ever occur to you there may be a very good reason why no other details were released? Not just by people on this forum but in the media as well.
If you can't stand not knowing every last detail and that affects your opinion of RP then stay home. Nobody is dragging you down there.
whoa, easy there mis2810, I meant to say tell touristjack come on down. this thread is making me dizzy with BS. I am on your side for Gods sake, I own a house in RP.
Well, I guess we're not going to any malls in Texas now are we? I could do this everything single day, sometimes multiple times a day with articles about the US. How many more shootings have we had in RP since July 19th?
Jerry, that video was shot from, the Mariposa housing development. There was blood on some of the walls, 2 weeks later, at the sports complex, behind Mariposa,
They caught up with the white truck on fremont by oceanos, guy got out with the Ak 47 and shot up the pei police but they shot back with a M16 and glocks.
They caught up with the white truck on fremont by oceanos, guy got out with the Ak 47 and shot up the pei police but they shot back with a M16 and glocks.
The or a truck , was found on the highway later out past my house, according to the newspaper, there were 3 that got away, one probably wounded, the paper said the inside was smeared with blood.
10 people were killed and some 40 others were wounded. That's just this past weekend. A six-year old girl playing on her front porch, parents sitting there with her, was one of the victims. How tragic.
mis2810-I agree with what you say. I should have been more specific in my post. When you consider the brother of former President Salinas, who held a high government post, was on the narco payroll as well as another government officialwhowas the highest law enforecment officer in the country (who worked with the US and shared intelligence) was also on the narco payroll, it is no wonder things are the way they are. In the past I had business interests in most of the larger cities in Mexico. I travelled thoughout the country. Whenever I met someone new I was greeted with a warm smile. Whenever I entered a Mexican home I was greeted as a member of the family and made to feel welcomed and at home. I met people on all socio-ecomomic levels and found them to be warm, kind and generous. The beauty of the country and graciousness of its people is amazing. When I think of all of the innocent people who have lost their lives in this narco war my heart aches for their families.
10 people were killed and some 40 others were wounded. That's just this past weekend. A six-year old girl playing on her front porch, parents sitting there with her, was one of the victims. How tragic.
You most likely have never been to Chicago...awesome city
I haven't been there for years, but man, I think it is one great place. The lake front, museums, restaurants
are great.
I got the bends there once. I was supposed to me my brother at the Top of the Whatever like 95
gazzilion stories up. I get vertigo anyway, but went up. Got there and they said I had taken the wrong elevator.
So back down, outside to another elevator. 96 gazzilion stories up and voila, no brother. Called him and learned I was
in the wrong building. So down I go, across the way and up another gazzilion stories. He thought it was really funny
until I made him buy dinner.
I've kept to myself in regards to this issue, heck, we live here now.
My family is scared to come visit us because of the propaganda and smear campaign in regards to any negative news coming out of Mexico. I made a snide remark on facebook saying that the governments of Mexico and Canada should issue travel advisories to warn citizens of travel to the United States. Maybe I missed it but, I don't recall any theater or church mass murders on this side of the border. The fact that most of the crime here appear to be in the name of the drug wars with an occasional bystander getting in the way.
What happened at Las Conchas could happen anywhere. Home invasions are a everyday occurrence in the United States. There are simple realities that sensible people have to face, there is dangerous people everywhere. I don't flash cash, drive a high profile vehicle, or do anything that puts my family at risk. Those realities come into play here in Puerto Penasco, Phoenix, Chicago, Los Angeles, and even while visiting Disneyworld.
The bottom line is that we feel safe here. We have inlaws from the Rio Sonora in town this weekend and spent the early evening at the Malacon last night. We enjoyed an ice cream, the vendors, and even the kids got to ride the train. Would I take my children out like that in downtown Chicago at night? How about New York City, Los Angeles, or even London? To all my family back in the good ole USA, sorry, but we will be staying here in Puerto Penasco.
mis2810-I agree with what you say. I should have been more specific in my post. When you consider the brother of former President Salinas, who held a high government post, was on the narco payroll as well as another government officialwhowas the highest law enforecment officer in the country (who worked with the US and shared intelligence) was also on the narco payroll, it is no wonder things are the way they are. In the past I had business interests in most of the larger cities in Mexico. I travelled thoughout the country. Whenever I met someone new I was greeted with a warm smile. Whenever I entered a Mexican home I was greeted as a member of the family and made to feel welcomed and at home. I met people on all socio-ecomomic levels and found them to be warm, kind and generous. The beauty of the country and graciousness of its people is amazing. When I think of all of the innocent people who have lost their lives in this narco war my heart aches for their families.
Completely agree with everything you said. But I'll also add that the only difference between criminals in the government in the US and Mexico is that the US government criminals are better kept secrets.
10 people were killed and some 40 others were wounded. That's just this past weekend. A six-year old girl playing on her front porch, parents sitting there with her, was one of the victims. How tragic.
I've never been to Chicago other than to change planes at O'Hare. I'm sure it's a beautiful city. Extremely sad about all the murders there. I've seen reports on CNN about the increasing violence. But where's the US Travel Advisory??? Classic example of 100% hypocrascy on the part of Americans and their government.
I don't get it? What was wrong with the advice he gave? Did he state anything that is not factual? Very sound advice to young kids that may be traveling SOB for their first time. Might also be a good idea if it's just a couple of kids going to take a shuttle service down for the first time so they can learn where to go and where not to go.
Condescending to whom and about what? Please be specific as to exactly what part was condescending? It's sound advice he gave. If anything he stated that One of the benefits of being a UA student is the opportunity to travel to Mexico and experience another country's culture. Thats great news I would think but I'm just a tourist with no financial interests in Penasco other than to relax
As for comparing Penasco to Tucson is apples and oranges. Penasco is a vacation destination that is getting a reputation for drug cartel crime with roving shootouts using automatic weapons. Tucson is a large city, very large city and it has some nut cases that go off the deep end, just like any other large city.
Sedona is also a vacation destination same as Penasco, I would also recommend not going to any sweat lodges.
AZ Miguel, I'm not going to get in a back and forth. I believe it was condescending for the U of A V.P. of Student Affairs to send out a note the first week of school saying: BEWARE OF MEXICO, don't drink, stay in pairs, etc. Why the hell didn't he say the same thing about going out for drinks on 4th Avenue or for tacos south of U of A? I counted 9 murders in a 3 mile radius surrounding U of A in the past 30 days. It's amazing he ignored Tucson's murders and only focused on the incident this past summer.
Well, and these BEWARE-OF-MEXICO alerts are issued annually like clockwork from media, just prior to Labor Day, Spring Break, etc., whether there has been recent violence or not.
AZ Miguel, I'm not going to get in a back and forth. I believe it was condescending for the U of A V.P. of Student Affairs to send out a note the first week of school saying: BEWARE OF MEXICO, don't drink, stay in pairs, etc. Why the hell didn't he say the same thing about going out for drinks on 4th Avenue or for tacos south of U of A? I counted 9 murders in a 3 mile radius surrounding U of A in the past 30 days. It's amazing he ignored Tucson's murders and only focused on the incident this past summer.
Exactly! Whether the advice was sound or not, it's the singling out of Mexico and RP that is the problem.
AZ Miguel, I'm not going to get in a back and forth. I believe it was condescending for the U of A V.P. of Student Affairs to send out a note the first week of school saying: BEWARE OF MEXICO, don't drink, stay in pairs, etc. Why the hell didn't he say the same thing about going out for drinks on 4th Avenue or for tacos south of U of A? I counted 9 murders in a 3 mile radius surrounding U of A in the past 30 days. It's amazing he ignored Tucson's murders and only focused on the incident this past summer.
So the Vice President of U of A should advise his students to leave Tucson and/or abandon their country? Wow, I would love to see the reaction to that letter. I have lived in Mexico for 7 years and I support the tourism effort for Rocky Point. As much as I love living here, it does have certain risks just like living in the United States. What many of you are ignoring with this continued illogical comparison is that anyone living in Tucson or going to U of A is presumed to know the risk of living there. It is not presumed that these students would all realize the risks associated with visiting Mexico for a day or two.
So the Vice President of U of A should advise his students to leave Tucson and/or abandon their country? Wow, I would love to see the reaction to that letter. I have lived in Mexico for 7 years and I support the tourism effort for Rocky Point. As much as I love living here, it does have certain risks just like living in the United States. What many of you are ignoring with this continued illogical comparison is that anyone living in Tucson or going to U of A is presumed to know the risk of living there. It is not presumed that these students would all realize the risks associated with visiting Mexico for a day or two.
With the current "wired" generation, I would hope that they are aware of the violence related to cartel activity in Mexico.....but then again, maybe not...all they do is tweet and facebook!!! (what did my fav movie/sports figure do today...what was the color of his/.her poop?...what did the Kardashians do?)
With the current "wired" generation, I would hope that they are aware of the violence related to cartel activity in Mexico.....but then again, maybe not...all they do is tweet and facebook!!! (what did my fav movie/sports figure do today...what was the color of his/.her poop?...what did the Kardashians do?)
You bring about a good point. I consider it my responsibility to be informed, I search for information. Sadly, the Kardashian/Hilton/Lohan generation does not view things in the same light.
Rockypoint lovers will keep cheering, and haters will always be haters, sometimes they will turn on you, Hey even the senior reporter was down here eating and drinking away, ask anyone that is renting their beach place out, they will even get caught up with the bills and even have income coming in. Don't matter Penasco will be here with or without you!