Entertaining yes----- more opinion than informative...IMHHO
That is your opinion and I respect your right to have it----- However I disagree with most of what you say. I know there are Law Enforcement guys with a heavy hand and an ax to grind-- But in my experience, most are good people doing a tough job. Treat them with respect and you will get respect back. Call them pigs and they will treat you like a pig. Yes, I am a retired cop-- Spent twenty-one years working the streets. You said in an earlier post that you would never call the cops-- good for you. However, believe it or not-- There are people who need to cops-- The rape victim, the molested child, the horrific accident scene-- would you not want the cops to stop the person(s) who commit those crimes? Where do you draw the line? They (we) did not decide what laws went into that book you hand them (us) and tell them to enforce. Yes some get the interpretation wrong, but the system should fix that. Just as the designated driver with her lights off had the case dropped.
They (we) are not the enemy.
I guess we could debate this forever, but let's just agree to disagree and move on.
I am a new member of this forum, and I lurk here to listen to all the stories to remember and re-live all my good times in RP. I have been going to RP for over 25 years and hope to someday spend much more time there. I love the people and the culture (and the good beer, beaches and food can't be beat either)---
Good luck----- by the look of what you post you will need it.
Entertaining yes----- more opinion than informative...IMHHO
That is your opinion and I respect your right to have it----- However I disagree with most of what you say. I know there are Law Enforcement guys with a heavy hand and an ax to grind-- But in my experience, most are good people doing a tough job. Treat them with respect and you will get respect back. Call them pigs and they will treat you like a pig.
I have a friend that is a cop. He seems like a decent guy and I would like to think that he is the fabled "officer friendly" I have heard-tell of, but I have never encountered him in an official capacity, and obviously me being his friend would put a certain slant on any official business we might have.
There are people in the liberty movement who are totally opposed to calling cops "pigs" as they are of the belief that cops need to be educated and reformed and brought over to our side. Some have obviously made that trip or are on their way (as evidenced by organizations like LEAP and Oath Keepers), but I think those cops and former cops understand better than I why some of us would refer to the cops as "pigs". Suffice to say it's my belief that most "good" cops will have a short law enforcement career and therefore I believe that the vast majority of cops are irredeemable. The fact is that occupations attract people sometimes for the wrong reason. Those interested in white-collar theft often go into the financial field, especially in banking. Child molesters often become teachers, clergy, scout masters, etc because it puts them in contact with children. Unfortunately the militarization of domestic police forces has, in my opinion, attracted a good number of violent psychopaths to enter various police and law enforcement agencies. There has always been wide-spread corruption among police, but I think the level of violence aimed at the general public has increased quite a bit in the last few years. It used to be that people in your former occupation were referred to as "peace officers" as their general duty was to keep the peace, but it seems to me now days the arrival of a cop increase the level of violence to many situations because you have people with violent streaks being indoctrinated into a culture where violence is glorified and phoney machismo is the norm.
Tedram said:
Yes, I am a retired cop-- Spent twenty-one years working the streets. You said in an earlier post that you would never call the cops-- good for you.
There is the possibility that I might call the cops, but that is a pretty narrow set of circumstances. My preference would be rather than only having one police force to call on, I would have my choice of police forces to make use of (yes, that means private policing).
Tedram said:
However, believe it or not-- There are people who need to cops-- The rape victim, the molested child, the horrific accident scene-- would you not want the cops to stop the person(s) who commit those crimes? Where do you draw the line?
And how many of the issues you just addressed require a cop who is decked out like he is going into battle? Yet if you call the pigs, that's kinda what shows up - some roidhead with an attitude, a badge and an array of weapons. Usually the cops responding to the scene are either overkill for what is required or worse, show up and make the situation worse. Do I need to show you the videos of cops beating the **** out of a guy who was diabetic and in insulin shock? How about the cops who showed up to a car crash and shot the victim dead because he was in shock? I could go on, but the point is that cops these days seem to be all about either finding something to charge someone with or beating the crap out of whoever they can.
Tedram said:
They (we) did not decide what laws went into that book you hand them (us) and tell them to enforce. Yes some get the interpretation wrong, but the system should fix that. Just as the designated driver with her lights off had the case dropped.
First off, the designated driver was not a mistake, it was a pig committing perjury, for which he was never charged. Second, are you OK with just going along with orders? I mean, that was the defense the concentration camp guards tried at Nuremberg. Would you feel OK with locking a guy up for having some empty beer bottles in the back of his SUV? How about sending someone to prison for having a few grams of weed on him? How about charging someone with DUI when they've had 1 beer? How about writing someone a $140 parking ticket for parking in an unpaved parking lot?
I think many pigs lack the intelligence or introspection to even question what it is they are doing or the morality of it. I think that is exactly the people police forces are trying to recruit. As a result I think my perception, and hopefully the general public perception of the police is going to deteriorate greatly in the next few years.
Tedram said:
They (we) are not the enemy.
Yes, you are. When you guys hide on the highway trying to catch us on a speed trap, you are acting like highwaymen. When you send a drug sniffing dog around my vehicle because you pulled me over for a supposed broken tail light, you are invading my right to privacy and my right to peacefully pursue happiness. Whenever you bust down a door serving a no-knock warrant, you are acting in an uncivilized and tyrannical way.
I have very little fear of criminals. I have a rational fear of the government and their hired goons, the cops.
Tedram said:
I guess we could debate this forever, but let's just agree to disagree and move on.
I am a new member of this forum, and I lurk here to listen to all the stories to remember and re-live all my good times in RP. I have been going to RP for over 25 years and hope to someday spend much more time there. I love the people and the culture (and the good beer, beaches and food can't be beat either)---
Good luck----- by the look of what you post you will need it.
Agreed, although I have to take issue with the beer thing; cold Mexican beer is fine on a hot beach, but in reality it's not truly good beer. I'm actually disappointed that it seems I can buy better beer cheaper here in AZ than I can in RP. Hopefully that will change though. Americans have had their beer palette become much more refined in the past two decades so maybe the Mexicans will follow suit.
These type of exchanges on this thread didn't even enter mind mind today when a co-worker friend was telling us what a jerk his cop son had become. One of his many storys was about how he'd ticketed this kid on prom night and ruined his evening, because he could. No drugs or alcohol involved, the kid just got nervous because he had stopped half way into a crosswalk with a cop next to him, and when he backed up he bumped the car (no damage) behind him. A $190 fine, traffic school, and probably a increase in his insurance. When he told his son that maybe he could have given him some slack, it was prom night, his son had told him he likes to follow people real close and for a long time knowing it makes them nervous, and sooner or later they'll make a mistake.
He said his son works out hard 6 day's a week, and has put on weight and beefed up considerably. I said "doe's he use steroids?" I don't think he uses them anymore was his reply. He did seem proud though when he told us his son is called on first when something big is his going down because he likes to be the first one through the door, and he isn't afraid of anything.
If my kid was like that I certainly wouldn't tell my co-workers or anyone else for that matter is exactly what I told him.
DMAC.....I'm left speechless! I can't tell which "mind" has gone over the deep end more....our recently re-departed Happy/Silvia....or yours!
Joe, you're speechless because you don't have an argument, you're propagandized world view has left you in a catatonic state, as you have been programmed to do. No worries Joe, pour yourself a stiff one (cuz that's the drug the government wants you to use), go down to the beach and watch the sunset while listening to that stupid song "I'm Proud to be an Merican!" and just repeat the mantra "land of the free, home of the brave, land of the free, home of the brave" and it will pass. Pretty soon you'll be looking at the good 'ol USA and see nothing but friendly govt workers welcoming you and white picket fences.
These type of exchanges on this thread didn't even enter mind mind today when a co-worker friend was telling us what a jerk his cop son had become. One of his many storys was about how he'd ticketed this kid on prom night and ruined his evening, because he could. No drugs or alcohol involved, the kid just got nervous because he had stopped half way into a crosswalk with a cop next to him, and when he backed up he bumped the car (no damage) behind him. A $190 fine, traffic school, and probably a increase in his insurance. When he told his son that maybe he could have given him some slack, it was prom night, his son had told him he likes to follow people real close and for a long time knowing it makes them nervous, and sooner or later they'll make a mistake.
He said his son works out hard 6 day's a week, and has put on weight and beefed up considerably. I said "doe's he use steroids?" I don't think he uses them anymore was his reply. He did seem proud though when he told us his son is called on first when something big is his going down because he likes to be the first one through the door, and he isn't afraid of anything.
If my kid was like that I certainly wouldn't tell my co-workers or anyone else for that matter is exactly what I told him.
Kenny if that were my son, I would disown him. Period.
Entertaining yes----- more opinion than informative...IMHHO
That is your opinion and I respect your right to have it----- However I disagree with most of what you say. I know there are Law Enforcement guys with a heavy hand and an ax to grind-- But in my experience, most are good people doing a tough job. Treat them with respect and you will get respect back. Call them pigs and they will treat you like a pig. Yes, I am a retired cop-- Spent twenty-one years working the streets. You said in an earlier post that you would never call the cops-- good for you. However, believe it or not-- There are people who need to cops-- The rape victim, the molested child, the horrific accident scene-- would you not want the cops to stop the person(s) who commit those crimes? Where do you draw the line? They (we) did not decide what laws went into that book you hand them (us) and tell them to enforce. Yes some get the interpretation wrong, but the system should fix that. Just as the designated driver with her lights off had the case dropped.
They (we) are not the enemy.
I guess we could debate this forever, but let's just agree to disagree and move on.
I am a new member of this forum, and I lurk here to listen to all the stories to remember and re-live all my good times in RP. I have been going to RP for over 25 years and hope to someday spend much more time there. I love the people and the culture (and the good beer, beaches and food can't be beat either)---
Good luck----- by the look of what you post you will need it.
You want respect, you come on here and earn it!BTW if you don't mind me asking where you were employed?
Tedram, I'm feeling you. I held law enforcement officers in the highest regard until 10 days ago. I felt if I were doing nothing wrong and I treated them with respect, all would work out well. A certain libertarian friend always told me I was a Pollyanna, but I maintained that I wouldn't succumb to his dystopian view of the world. He said I'm still 9 years old, with the nice officer visiting my school, and I can't say he was wrong.
But now I have multiple dogs in this melee of my mind. I won't choose a political side, because I don't have one. And I can't choose a law enforcement side, though I had a strongly positive one 10 days ago.
I'd like to openly relate my embarassing experience, because I've been rolling over and over in it, and relating it might be cathartic. And maybe helpful to those crossing the US Border Zone.
But first this--police aren't pigs. I'm an anthropologist, and dehumanizing groups of others into animal form is as old a form of tribalism as there is. With apologies to DMAC, such usage is an incipient form of hooliganism (kinda fun, frankly), ethnocentrism, racism, and much, much worse. It's natural in the raw, but civilized society requires that we rise above the raw. Even humanistic atheists would call dehumanization of groups dangerous.
OK, before the cautionary tale, some background. I'm an archaeologist and the owner of a little archaeological consulting firm. Wife, daughter, stepson. Funlover, but law-abider. No better or worse than any other good citizen. 45 years old and not at all jaded by life or terribly so by government. Social liberal, fiscal conservative. Love travel, love Mexico, new owner in Las Conchas.
On the Circus Mexicus weekend, we had kids and a slew of good friends at our house. Beach trips, music, ton of laughs, ton of fun, all safe. I had to split to a biz meeting to my New Mexico office on Monday, though, so split I did as everyone else slept. Was stopped in Sonoyta, paid a mordida, and kept going. Stopped at the border and detained and searched. Then stopped 10 miles north by an oddly well-armed cadre of 3 Pima County Sheriff officers in 3 separate trucks.
License, reg, insurance out the window. Stepped out as they requested. Politely granted them search privileges. They asked me to walk a line. Gave me a breathilyzer. Senior guy told me, "Mr. Motsinger, you are twice the legal limit." I was aghast. I said, "I"m not sure how that could be. I haven't been drinking." He asked, "Were you drinking this weekend?" I said, "Yes, but that was yesterday. I guess somehow I've still got too much in me." One of the other officers said, "Yeah, that can accumulate for a long time." I said, "Whatever you have to do, officer, go ahead." I figured I was somehow an unwitting DUI, and was fully willing to just be taken off the road and charged. I asked to see the breathilyzer because I still couldn't believe it. He jerked it away as I leaned toward it. He said he wouldn't show it because it wasn't admissable. So I said, "OK, let's just get to the blood test. Please administer it."
He wouldn't, which I thought was strange if I really were twice the legal limit at 10:00 am on a Monday. He told me they'd found 4 open beer bottles, so they knew I'd been drinking. I was puzzled, but there they laid them on the Sonoran sand below me. I asked, "Where were those? In the back? They're empty bottles." He told me it doesn't matter, they're open containers. I looked at them and said, "Those are trash from our beach time yesterday. They were back in the third row, weren't they?"
He told me I was being uncooperative and that he really wanted to let me go, but I'd have to stop being this way or they wouldn't. Puzzled, I told him I'd be happy to tell him anything he wanted if I could just get on my way since I hadn't done anything wrong. The three of them conferred outside my earshot. Then the guy who appeared to be the junior one handcuffed me and Mirandized me. Led me into his patrol truck. And transported me to Ajo. Along the way, we chatted and he said that the sergeant had decided I had been uncooperative and the had to charge me. It wouldn't be long...just a few minutes to an hour before I was on my way. I spent the next 25 hours in the jail.
Some stories to be told in there, but I'll just abbreviate by saying that if my mother had gotten a one-day report card, it might have read, "Thomas just doesn't look like he fits in with the other students. Could you send him to school tomorrow more inarticulate and physically scraggled out?" I wasn't beligerent at all...I just really, really didn't fit in. Finally got a hearing with the judge the next day. Chained, shackle...yet resplendent in orange and chrome!
The judge offered me the minimum sentence of $255 fine if I pled guilty to a Class 2 Misdemeanor open container violation for the empty 4 bottles. Or I could fight it and face what she made clear was a maximum sentence of 4 months and $750.
If a lot of you forum-istas are like me, you're thinking, "Oh, you've gotta fight that, dude!" Truth is, I'd be a horrible POW. I'd have done anything to just get out of there and have no chance of ever going back. So I caved, pled guilty, and within an hour I was hitchhiking back to retrieve my truck and get back to my wife and kids in Penasco. All business appointments for the week canceled.
So no judgements here, no political slant, and this time no jokes. I don't even have a moral for any of you traveling the U.S. Border Zone. There's just one law enforcement/judiciary experience for you to consider.
anyone that has cash to buy a home in las conchas would never be thumbing it. Then again you say they took your passport at the border, no one can take your passport unless your arrested at the border. Like I asked you before who is the office manager at las conchas you have to know that if you bought there you have to be approved by them...
but there they laid them on the Sonoran sand below me.
All we need after this line is a description (with colors of course) of the sun rising above the majestic mountains in the background and we'd have another Steinbeck in the making.
But first this--police aren't pigs. I'm an anthropologist, and dehumanizing groups of others into animal form is as old a form of tribalism as there is. With apologies to DMAC, such usage is an incipient form of hooliganism (kinda fun, frankly), ethnocentrism, racism, and much, much worse. It's natural in the raw, but civilized society requires that we rise above the raw. Even humanistic atheists would call dehumanization of groups dangerous.
I'm frankly ok with it and with tribalism. I'm reveling in my tribal roots right now. When i think about it, my ancestors were so resistant to big, central government that they were one of the few, if not the only society the Romans flat-out gave up on and spent untold amounts of money building a wall to keep them out rather than try and conquer them. You see tmots, my anti-government tendencies are probably genetic, so you have to treat it with the same sort of compassion you would someone with a genetic disorder; I literally can't help myself.
As to the "pigs" moniker, I didn't coin it and I feel like using it pays homage to my fellow travelers from the 60's. I used to use it when I was a teen because I thought it was cool and I use it now because it somehow aptly describes the disdain to which I have for them as a group. Some in the liberty movement refer to them as the "Blue Mafia" or the "Gang with Badges", but I really don't think those terms aptly convey the disdain that ought to be heaped on them. To be honest any civilized society would have nothing to do with such a group. Civilization requires the rejection of anything uncivilized. If you find my description uncivilized, then it aptly describes the cops. And no, I do not find the "dehumanization" of groups dangerous if the group acts in a manner which is inhumane. Despite the fact that there may have been some "good" Nazis, most people have no problem using dehumanizing terms for the Nazis, because they themselves earned such terms by acting in an inhumane way. Cops who stop interacting with people on a human level and simply revert to becoming enforcers for the state are very much inhumane. The former cop here who claims that "cops are not the enemy" is simply wrong. Cops have, as a group, shown themselves willing to enforce laws even if the enforcement of such laws is a great injustice to the person they are enforcing them against. As I said, normal, functional compassionate individuals would be repulsed by the idea of locking someone in a cage for have empty beer bottles in the back of his vehicle, especially when there was empirical evidence that the person had not been drinking. You were shocked by it, I was shocked by it (well, not so much because I am a little more aware than you), the people around you were shocked by it. So why were the pigs not shocked by it? The short answer is because they're pigs. They sold out any humanity they might have had to be a goon for the state. And to all those on the thread who claim "hey, if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear" I say, you have done something 'wrong', you just might not know it until someone in law enforcement takes your freedom or your money. That was the point of the book I referenced earlier. Even if you were a practicing lawyer, there is no way you could know all the laws that were passed by all levels of government in just the past year. It simply is impossible for the average Joe to not be a scofflaw because the government has designed the laws so that they can go after anyone at any time.
And speaking of Joe, Joe go look into your medicine cabinet. Do you see any prescription drugs you have kept beyond the prescription date? If so, congratulations, you're guilty of a federal drug offense. Sure we all keep the leftover Vicodin or Oxycodone from a prescription because you never know if you'll need it in the future, but doing so makes you a criminal. The only difference between you and the guy who's in prison for having some weed is that the pigs have not managed to get into your medicine cabinet yet. But eventually they will. I am sure we'll have mandatory house-by-house inspections down the line all in the name of keeping the homeland secure. So Joe, just make sure you don't keep those prescription meds too long; eventually the pigs might find out.
Tom I loved your story, and Joe, I know Tom very well you can call it BS if you want but I am with Tom on this one. I am sorry that you had to deal with this. You can be sure that this is being read by the boys up north and maybe it will have a little impact on future dealings. The power behind the gun and badge is scary. The idea that their corrupt actions in the middle of the desert will never be found out is laughable.
I wonder what would happen if I got pulled over taking my aluminum cans to the recyclers....thats 100 open containers Mr Black....I guess I will try it to see.
I have a friend that is a cop. He seems like a decent guy and I would like to think that he is the fabled "officer friendly" I have heard-tell of, but I have never encountered him in an official capacity, and obviously me being his friend would put a certain slant on any official business we might have.
There are people in the liberty movement who are totally opposed to calling cops "pigs" as they are of the belief that cops need to be educated and reformed and brought over to our side. Some have obviously made that trip or are on their way (as evidenced by organizations like LEAP and Oath Keepers), but I think those cops and former cops understand better than I why some of us would refer to the cops as "pigs". Suffice to say it's my belief that most "good" cops will have a short law enforcement career and therefore I believe that the vast majority of cops are irredeemable. The fact is that occupations attract people sometimes for the wrong reason. Those interested in white-collar theft often go into the financial field, especially in banking. Child molesters often become teachers, clergy, scout masters, etc because it puts them in contact with children. Unfortunately the militarization of domestic police forces has, in my opinion, attracted a good number of violent psychopaths to enter various police and law enforcement agencies. There has always been wide-spread corruption among police, but I think the level of violence aimed at the general public has increased quite a bit in the last few years. It used to be that people in your former occupation were referred to as "peace officers" as their general duty was to keep the peace, but it seems to me now days the arrival of a cop increase the level of violence to many situations because you have people with violent streaks being indoctrinated into a culture where violence is glorified and phoney machismo is the norm.
There is the possibility that I might call the cops, but that is a pretty narrow set of circumstances. My preference would be rather than only having one police force to call on, I would have my choice of police forces to make use of (yes, that means private policing).
And how many of the issues you just addressed require a cop who is decked out like he is going into battle? Yet if you call the pigs, that's kinda what shows up - some roidhead with an attitude, a badge and an array of weapons. Usually the cops responding to the scene are either overkill for what is required or worse, show up and make the situation worse. Do I need to show you the videos of cops beating the **** out of a guy who was diabetic and in insulin shock? How about the cops who showed up to a car crash and shot the victim dead because he was in shock? I could go on, but the point is that cops these days seem to be all about either finding something to charge someone with or beating the crap out of whoever they can.
First off, the designated driver was not a mistake, it was a pig committing perjury, for which he was never charged. Second, are you OK with just going along with orders? I mean, that was the defense the concentration camp guards tried at Nuremberg. Would you feel OK with locking a guy up for having some empty beer bottles in the back of his SUV? How about sending someone to prison for having a few grams of weed on him? How about charging someone with DUI when they've had 1 beer? How about writing someone a $140 parking ticket for parking in an unpaved parking lot?
I think many pigs lack the intelligence or introspection to even question what it is they are doing or the morality of it. I think that is exactly the people police forces are trying to recruit. As a result I think my perception, and hopefully the general public perception of the police is going to deteriorate greatly in the next few years.
Yes, you are. When you guys hide on the highway trying to catch us on a speed trap, you are acting like highwaymen. When you send a drug sniffing dog around my vehicle because you pulled me over for a supposed broken tail light, you are invading my right to privacy and my right to peacefully pursue happiness. Whenever you bust down a door serving a no-knock warrant, you are acting in an uncivilized and tyrannical way.
I have very little fear of criminals. I have a rational fear of the government and their hired goons, the cops.
Agreed, although I have to take issue with the beer thing; cold Mexican beer is fine on a hot beach, but in reality it's not truly good beer. I'm actually disappointed that it seems I can buy better beer cheaper here in AZ than I can in RP. Hopefully that will change though. Americans have had their beer palette become much more refined in the past two decades so maybe the Mexicans will follow suit.
DMAC- You are very articulate and have conviction----I respect that very much. I still think your view is very extreme (and wrong)… Maybe someday we can share a cold one in RP and have a discussion in person---- I think we both could learn a few things.. Ted
Tedram, I'm feeling you. I held law enforcement officers in the highest regard until 10 days ago. I felt if I were doing nothing wrong and I treated them with respect, all would work out well. A certain libertarian friend always told me I was a Pollyanna, but I maintained that I wouldn't succumb to his dystopian view of the world. He said I'm still 9 years old, with the nice officer visiting my school, and I can't say he was wrong.
But now I have multiple dogs in this melee of my mind. I won't choose a political side, because I don't have one. And I can't choose a law enforcement side, though I had a strongly positive one 10 days ago.
I'd like to openly relate my embarassing experience, because I've been rolling over and over in it, and relating it might be cathartic. And maybe helpful to those crossing the US Border Zone.
But first this--police aren't pigs. I'm an anthropologist, and dehumanizing groups of others into animal form is as old a form of tribalism as there is. With apologies to DMAC, such usage is an incipient form of hooliganism (kinda fun, frankly), ethnocentrism, racism, and much, much worse. It's natural in the raw, but civilized society requires that we rise above the raw. Even humanistic atheists would call dehumanization of groups dangerous.
OK, before the cautionary tale, some background. I'm an archaeologist and the owner of a little archaeological consulting firm. Wife, daughter, stepson. Funlover, but law-abider. No better or worse than any other good citizen. 45 years old and not at all jaded by life or terribly so by government. Social liberal, fiscal conservative. Love travel, love Mexico, new owner in Las Conchas.
On the Circus Mexicus weekend, we had kids and a slew of good friends at our house. Beach trips, music, ton of laughs, ton of fun, all safe. I had to split to a biz meeting to my New Mexico office on Monday, though, so split I did as everyone else slept. Was stopped in Sonoyta, paid a mordida, and kept going. Stopped at the border and detained and searched. Then stopped 10 miles north by an oddly well-armed cadre of 3 Pima County Sheriff officers in 3 separate trucks.
License, reg, insurance out the window. Stepped out as they requested. Politely granted them search privileges. They asked me to walk a line. Gave me a breathilyzer. Senior guy told me, "Mr. Motsinger, you are twice the legal limit." I was aghast. I said, "I"m not sure how that could be. I haven't been drinking." He asked, "Were you drinking this weekend?" I said, "Yes, but that was yesterday. I guess somehow I've still got too much in me." One of the other officers said, "Yeah, that can accumulate for a long time." I said, "Whatever you have to do, officer, go ahead." I figured I was somehow an unwitting DUI, and was fully willing to just be taken off the road and charged. I asked to see the breathilyzer because I still couldn't believe it. He jerked it away as I leaned toward it. He said he wouldn't show it because it wasn't admissable. So I said, "OK, let's just get to the blood test. Please administer it."
He wouldn't, which I thought was strange if I really were twice the legal limit at 10:00 am on a Monday. He told me they'd found 4 open beer bottles, so they knew I'd been drinking. I was puzzled, but there they laid them on the Sonoran sand below me. I asked, "Where were those? In the back? They're empty bottles." He told me it doesn't matter, they're open containers. I looked at them and said, "Those are trash from our beach time yesterday. They were back in the third row, weren't they?"
He told me I was being uncooperative and that he really wanted to let me go, but I'd have to stop being this way or they wouldn't. Puzzled, I told him I'd be happy to tell him anything he wanted if I could just get on my way since I hadn't done anything wrong. The three of them conferred outside my earshot. Then the guy who appeared to be the junior one handcuffed me and Mirandized me. Led me into his patrol truck. And transported me to Ajo. Along the way, we chatted and he said that the sergeant had decided I had been uncooperative and the had to charge me. It wouldn't be long...just a few minutes to an hour before I was on my way. I spent the next 25 hours in the jail.
Some stories to be told in there, but I'll just abbreviate by saying that if my mother had gotten a one-day report card, it might have read, "Thomas just doesn't look like he fits in with the other students. Could you send him to school tomorrow more inarticulate and physically scraggled out?" I wasn't beligerent at all...I just really, really didn't fit in. Finally got a hearing with the judge the next day. Chained, shackle...yet resplendent in orange and chrome!
The judge offered me the minimum sentence of $255 fine if I pled guilty to a Class 2 Misdemeanor open container violation for the empty 4 bottles. Or I could fight it and face what she made clear was a maximum sentence of 4 months and $750.
If a lot of you forum-istas are like me, you're thinking, "Oh, you've gotta fight that, dude!" Truth is, I'd be a horrible POW. I'd have done anything to just get out of there and have no chance of ever going back. So I caved, pled guilty, and within an hour I was hitchhiking back to retrieve my truck and get back to my wife and kids in Penasco. All business appointments for the week canceled.
So no judgements here, no political slant, and this time no jokes. I don't even have a moral for any of you traveling the U.S. Border Zone. There's just one law enforcement/judiciary experience for you to consider.
tmotsinger--
I am dissapointed to hear your story-- My opinion is that you should have plead not guilty on the open container charge. I think that charge was BS....
I am also curious as to why they did not pursue further on the impaired driving? If as you say they indicated you did not do well on the FST (Field Sobriety Test) and also failed the PBT (Portable Breath Test). Did you get asked to do the HGN (Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus) test? Were you ever asked to provide a Breath Test at the station? The PBA test is not admissible, it is an investigative tool to further (or dispel) their suspicion of impairment. Sounds like they did not have enough evidence to charge you with DUI but felt it was better to get you off the street. Believe it or not, after a hard latenight of partying then getting up early you could still be over the presumed impairment level of.08. Let’s just say the let you go and ten miles down the road you hit and kill someone, that person’s family sues those cops for not taking you off the road. I have investigated many 0600hr accidents due to an impaired driver from the night before.
Hey Ted thanks for the reply, and I don't remember calling anyone names on here, Its just kind of hard for me to believe you actually came out and told us you were in law enforcement, there are many people on here that are in that program, most of them just lurk, I know for a fact Tyler the owner of this forum want's to be in law enforcement or is and this site is being run by the CIA, LOL. Not much news unless you want to hear Russy tell us how good he has it down here in Penasco, I don't know why he is hiding here in Mexico. Looks like a retired mafia type to me! Hey welcome to the forum at least your honest and that's a start.
Hey Playa, some day I hope to be in Penasco this time of year instead of driving down on weekends and up to HOT Tucson during the week for work. We love Penasco in June- the water is warm enough to swim in and the severe heat has not yet hit like it has in Tucson and Phoenix. Then someone can ask what I'm hiding, and I'll tell them "I know nothing!"
Tedram, just to answer your questions for everyone's benefit:
They didn't administer the FST, I think because I answered (honestly) that I was a little sore from beach football the previous day.
No HGN was administered. My last drink was around 9:30 the night before, and the citation was at 10:30 am. I don't think I failed the PBT, but the officer wouldn't show me when I asked, so I don't know. No PBT was administered at the jail, presumably because it was just an open container violation.
I probably should have pled not guilty, I guess. But after 25 hours in there I would've admitted to lighting kittens on fire to keep from going back.
There are 2 sides to every story, I know most of the Pima County Sheriff's Deputies and I just can't picture that from them. Arresting somebody for empty beer bottles.
This has been one of the greatest forum threads of my life!! I could read DMAC and RMOORE for hours! Lol, unfortunately this thread must have started when I was in RP for 7 days because I just had to read through 23 pages to get to the end. Fantastic! I wont call the cops names (on a public forum) however I know in the 28 years Ive been on this earth the cops have never helped me but they have tried to F#@K me on numerous occasions. Ive had 2 bouts with the Pima Sheriffs a number of years ago and both turned into confrontations over just a license plate light being out. I would say on a bad day and with the right smart ass responses that yes they are capable of doing something like that. I have never been arrested in my life and once because I knew my rights and there was nothing the PHX Police could do about it and they actually held up to their end of the constitution and didnt rape me. However, the one thing that Ive learned through the years with traffic stops and other run ins with cops is that they USE INTIMIDATION to their benefit. The cops know the law and the general public doesnt and so they will use that to their benefit or the public knows the law and then becomes INTIMIDATED into GIVING UP THEIR 4th and 5th amendment rights. In my example 5 PHX Police officers wanted consent to search my vehicle because I had a license plate light out, lol they needed 5 cops!!!! That speaks on what DMAC was touching on. They tried to BULLY me into LETTING them search my vehicle and without probable cause I KNEW that was ILLEGAL and stood my ground, on top of that then and now any time I get the bully from a cop I let them know right away I know my rights. Cops think they can do whatever they want and they CAN right then and there but that doesnt mean that it will uphold in a court of law but by that time like DMAC mentioned you have all ready been raped by the system and feel degraded: EX. being handcuffed, going to a holding cell, facing a judge initially, retaining a lawyer all so that in the end they drop the case because the cops ABUSED THEIR POWER. This is the CLASSIC SHERIFF JOE MENTALITY, Im going to do whatever I want regardless if it legal or convictions are actually made. How many cases have we read in Phoenix where MSCO have violated rights only to have these cases thrown out, no convictions but the tax payer pays for that, not to mention the civil lawsuits that follow.
I will say this, the border region scares me!! From Gila Bend to the border and vice versa its all business with those men and women. Yes sir no sir yes mam no mam. In my condition Im definitely not looking to be detained in Ajo for a day, that would be a nightmare! I also had forgot to say something to ROCKY, you're telling me that you never ever drive with one drink in your system?! I would say that 38% of the time I drive I have one drink currently in the bloodstream. I just had one beer while reading through this thread and now Im hungry, Im going to get in my truck right now and go get something to eat and BY NO MEANS AM I IMPAIRED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I could never go out to dinner and drive because I ALWAYS HAVE A BEER WITH DINNER unless Im eating McDonalds or something, lets be HONEST HERE
The Ballad of Ajo Jail
(With apologies to Wyle, Schwartz...and Gilligan)
Just forum-up and you'll read a tale
A tale of a fateful trip
That started from our fishing port
Then led him to get stripped
The Mate was nearly forty-six
Yet handsome, tall, and lithe
Four passengers strewn in the back
For a four hour drive. A four hour drive.
Three deputies got kinda rough.
Miranda rights were tossed
The passengers were empty but
The Captain wasn't sauced. The Captain wasn't sauced.
He landed in Cell 4 of the
Ajo county jail.
With Recidivist...
Bail Jumper too.
Assaulting Guy...without his knife.
Transgender Dude.
A steel toilet and...Hairy Man.
Concrete with no tile!
I remember sitting down with a friend of mine at the local bar down here and we were talking about who we voted for in the primary elections. My buddy (ex-GF's bro-in-law) had no idea of my political leanings and let's just say he was a little shocked at what I was saying (hell, most people are when they talk politics to me). Anyway I was going on about how the worst threat to US citizens was their own govt. I told him I would prefer we just do away with it, to which he responded "Yeah, but you need some government, you know like the police". After spitting half my beer on him over that remark, I informed him that we don't need the police and if we were to have police that they should be private rather than government police. The conversation went like this:
Him: "Yeah but dude what would happen if we didn't have the police?"
Me: "I don't know about you but I would go on a murderous rampage of theft and rape."
Him: "Yeah, yeah, but you know there are times when you need to call the police"
Me: "Really? When was the last time you called the police?"
He thinks for a moment: "Well, it's been a while"
Me: "Yeah, and when they showed up were they any use at all?"
He thinks a bit longer: "Well, no not really"
Me: "You want to tell me why we HAVE to have the police again?"
One other thing I want to point out about the comments made by the ex-cop on the thread. He admitted that some cops "use a heavy hand and have an axe to grind". OK well by witnessing some of those types of cops beating, murdering and framing innocent people, I would say that is like me calling a rapists someone who is "overly amorous". The fact is that cops who look the other way when this stuff happens are as guilty as those that perpetrate it.
I will say this, the border region scares me!! From Gila Bend to the border and vice versa its all business with those men and women. Yes sir no sir yes mam no mam. In my condition Im definitely not looking to be detained in Ajo for a day, that would be a nightmare! I also had forgot to say something to ROCKY, you're telling me that you never ever drive with one drink in your system?! I would say that 38% of the time I drive I have one drink currently in the bloodstream. I just had one beer while reading through this thread and now Im hungry, Im going to get in my truck right now and go get something to eat and BY NO MEANS AM I IMPAIRED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I could never go out to dinner and drive because I ALWAYS HAVE A BEER WITH DINNER unless Im eating McDonalds or something, lets be HONEST HERE
I don't believe I ever said that I have never driven "with one drink in my system".....I don't drive "impaired" or under the influence.....and I sure don't get in my vehicle right after downing a drink. Actually, I've probably only had 6-8 beers in the last 9 months....and all of them have been in Mexico! Pathetic, isn't it? But with the medication I've been on, I like my liver too much! Oops, I lied about only the beers...I had a shot of tequila last Sunday when I was home, after I had a nice steak, then I sat down in the recliner, and had a nap! You know how us old farts get!
I don't believe I ever said that I have never driven "with one drink in my system".....I don't drive "impaired" or under the influence.....and I sure don't get in my vehicle right after downing a drink. Actually, I've probably only had 6-8 beers in the last 9 months....and all of them have been in Mexico! Pathetic, isn't it? But with the medication I've been on, I like my liver too much! Oops, I lied about only the beers...I had a shot of tequila last Sunday when I was home, after I had a nice steak, then I sat down in the recliner, and had a nap! You know how us old farts get!
I love that friends of ours are very concerned with recycling and want to bring empties back to the US to dump in the blue bins instead of leaving them in the trash at our house. Now I must tell them they can't.
mexicoruss said:
Tom I loved your story, and Joe, I know Tom very well you can call it BS if you want but I am with Tom on this one. I am sorry that you had to deal with this. You can be sure that this is being read by the boys up north and maybe it will have a little impact on future dealings. The power behind the gun and badge is scary. The idea that their corrupt actions in the middle of the desert will never be found out is laughable.
I wonder what would happen if I got pulled over taking my aluminum cans to the recyclers....thats 100 open containers Mr Black....I guess I will try it to see.
I was thrown in LA county jail shortly after the Watt's riots for some misdemeanor charge that I don't even remember now. The jail was a mess, the TV's had been torn off the walls etc... Anyway they threw me in a 6 man cell with 8 black guy's late in the afternoon. Now I'm a long haired surf rat, and pinko commie rat fink in a cell with 8 black guy's who thought of me as some kind off Alien, a white boy Alien. We had great conversations all night, as I was as interested in them as they (most of them anyway) were of me.
The next morning as we stood at the end of the cell with our arms out the bars so the Ha! "corrections officer" could read our wrist bans; Well this guy looked at me with his eyes wide and said "who put you in there! Do you want to go to a different cell?" I just said, "Who do you think put me in here, I'm just fine."
...Back in my youth and early adulthood I had more run in with the law for petty misdemeanor bull than I can even remember. Cop says, "we're going to have to arrest you for drunk in public, (Covina Cali) we can't have you walking around under the influence in this town! But I was running not walking I said, and I only live a block away! Once again it's off to the local jail, and when bail isn't posted by the time the bus leaves for the county jail, it's off for some more cultural exchange and personal growth..LOL
I love that friends of ours are very concerned with recycling and want to bring empties back to the US to dump in the blue bins instead of leaving them in the trash at our house. Now I must tell them they can't.
DMCA have you seen this site? I'm not a gambling man, but I'd say there's a very good chance you have.
Americans must now wake up to the fact that this nation is now unquestionably a police state!...> We're Living in a Police State
No this one's new on me. Mind you, there are plenty of places you can go to get all the evidence you need to realize we're living in a police state. Hell, travel to San Diego and you'll realize it.
I don't believe I ever said that I have never driven "with one drink in my system".....I don't drive "impaired" or under the influence.....and I sure don't get in my vehicle right after downing a drink. Actually, I've probably only had 6-8 beers in the last 9 months....and all of them have been in Mexico! Pathetic, isn't it? But with the medication I've been on, I like my liver too much! Oops, I lied about only the beers...I had a shot of tequila last Sunday when I was home, after I had a nice steak, then I sat down in the recliner, and had a nap! You know how us old farts get!
Joe, really? You're going to make me go back and find where you and DMAC were arguing and he was using my point exactly and you said SPECIFICALLY that you have 0% tolerance for that and that you dont drive with anything in your system! Maybe page 13, who knows and now I have to go back and find where you said it because you are a flip flopper. Like Kenny or Jerry once said, Joe would argue with a stop sign if it would listen.
You must have been living out of the country for a while there....Youngtown is no longer old "farts" ville!!! I think you might have a problem with that random sample and you driving with a .12 BAC..... As for people over 70 driving...they should be tested......actually, most of the people driving in AZ need to be tested (in a REAL road test) every three years, the way they drive here! I'd match up my driving skills and abilities with most 21 year olds....
You can do all the macho chest thumping that you want.....but if you're impaired....stay off the damn road, or pay the consequence! That's the distinction.....driving impaired, not having a glass of wine! And if having a glass of wine impairs you....either don't have the glass of wine or don't drive! Doing otherwise means there is no reasoning with you!
I stand corrected Joe, I apologize. However you do feel that it is either a drink and dont drive or drive and no drink, correct? So you break the law as you see it?
Joe, really? You're going to make me go back and find where you and DMAC were arguing and he was using my point exactly and you said SPECIFICALLY that you have 0% tolerance for that and that you dont drive with anything in your system! Maybe page 13, who knows and now I have to go back and find where you said it because you are a flip flopper. Like Kenny or Jerry once said, Joe would argue with a stop sign if it would listen.
Go for it.....
Mexico Joe said:
I stand corrected Joe, I apologize. However you do feel that it is either a drink and dont drive or drive and no drink, correct? So you break the law as you see it?
I stand corrected Joe, I apologize. However you do feel that it is either a drink and dont drive or drive and no drink, correct? So you break the law as you see it?
The law: 1. While under the influence of intoxicating liquor, any drug, a vapor releasing substance containing a toxic substance or any combination of liquor, drugs or vapor releasing substances if the person is impaired to the slightest degree.
The law: 1. While under the influence of intoxicating liquor, any drug, a vapor releasing substance containing a toxic substance or any combination of liquor, drugs or vapor releasing substances if the person is impaired to the slightest degree.
So, to answer your question....no I don't.
OK rockyptjoe, here's a reality check that you can either take to heart or ignore at your peril: It does not matter if you feel you are not impaired. If the pig says he believes you are impaired and you test positive for ANY amount of alcohol in your system, you're guilty under AZ law. That is the AZ law. It's not based on any scientific measurement of impairment, it's a based on whatever the pigs says.
So do you still like that law rockyptjoe? I suggest you'll say you like it until you run afoul of some pig with a point to make.
Bmac been doing that here in tucson for a while, what the heavens are doing now is blood tests, and if you are under influence of any type of drug you will be charged with dui, does not matter how much your knee hurts and need to take your pain meds. The one's they are after are the pot heads with a little bit of THC in their system, even riding your bike. Lucky for me i got panic attacks smoking pot over twenty years ago, so I celebrated last year twenty years drug free. Don't get me wrong i'm not throwing rocks against my pot head amigos. I still remember pulling out the rolling tray under the sofa first thing in the morning!
Bmac been doing that here in tucson for a while, what the heavens are doing now is blood tests, and if you are under influence of any type of drug you will be charged with dui, does not matter how much your knee hurts and need to take your pain meds. The one's they are after are the pot heads with a little bit of THC in their system, even riding your bike. Lucky for me i got panic attacks smoking pot over twenty years ago, so I celebrated last year twenty years drug free. Don't get me wrong i'm not throwing rocks against my pot head amigos. I still remember pulling out the rolling tray under the sofa first thing in the morning!
Pot is detectable in your system for weeks after having smoked it, so I wonder how many cases defense lawyers have been able to win with the claim that THC was in the system.
And yeah, it really puts those with chronic pain at risk. Basically the law ends up forbidding anyone who has to take narcotics for pain from driving. I think if a police department started setting up a DUI checkpoint out by Sun City or Seizure World and checking for narcotic traces and charging the old farts with DUI, we'd see some support for reform from those geezers.
If that crybaby that could not do 24 hours in jail would of been arrested here in Tucson he would of had his blood drawn. Says they didn't which surprises me. Yeah they let you walk, then after the blood tests come in they come pick you up.
I don't mouth off to them, I just assert my rights as a US citizen.
OK, there have been 20 pages of back and forth (and people getting banned) since the quote above was made, but this simple statement above needs to be addressed...
As a "US Citizen" you do not have ANY rights. You MUST understand that if you truly wish to be a free person.
The term "US citizen" is not legally defined in the Constitution- it is only legally defined in the case law history following the ratification of the 14th Amendment.
Prior to the 14th, there was NO SUCH THING as federal citizenship. You were a citizen of one of the "Several States" that comprised the Union (either natural born within the state's borders, or naturalized via residency and the individual state's immigration process) .
When the slaves were "freed", none of the defeated southern states would confer citizenship upon the newly emancipated black Americans, and the Union had no legal basis to force (or compel) them to do so; so following the passage of the 14th, the Federal Government created a district (a new "state" if you will) called The District of Columbia; and this new district conferred citizenship upon all who wished to be called Americans, but did not have a legal state of citizenship.
ALL of the federal immigration and naturalization case law following this event has served to solidify the language that a "US Citizen" is a naturalized and legal subject of the District of Columbia. There is no way that a "citizen" of an invented federal zone can EVER be a free person. You are a federal subject.
When you declare yourself to be a "US Citizen" you are actually providing "them" with the legal basis necessary to treat you as an inferior human being (a "subject", also known throughout history as a peon, or serf)- This is why there is no court in this system that will treat you as a free human being if you declare yourself to be a US citizen.
Master the legal language - it is the only defense you have against the legal march of tyrannical intention. The judges are powerless to help you once you declare yourself to be a subject of a corrupted legal system.
The defense is simple- whenever you are asked "Are you a US citizen?" your answer must not be "yes"; and it also must not be "no" unless you want them to harass you even further...
I have found the following alternatives to be effective:
"I am an Arizona citizen" (Arizona being the "Several State" of my legal birth)
or
"I'm an American" or "I'm an American citizen" (the term "American citizen" is a generic legal claim that you are a citizen of one of the several states, without being specific as to which one)
Or the one I used just yesterday in reference to my entire family when we were driving home:
"We're all citizens..." (notice I did not declare any state or legal jurisdiction- we could have been Canadians for all they knew, but they let us pass)
When you declare a specific legal jurisdiction relevant to your citizenship, you subject yourself to the laws of that jurisdiction; and when you declare your legal jurisdiction to be the federal UNITED STATES OF AMERICA you are seriously opening yourself to some real and serious legal oppression.
It is absolutely easiest to play along and cooperate with them, but in so doing, you NEVER have to subjugate yourself...
Pardon my disdain, but pleading the 5th in front of unformed officers who do not even understand the law they are supposed to be enforcing is extremely stupid. The 5th amendment is designed to protect you from incriminating yourself - this sends the red flag that you are a criminal who seeks to protect himself (or herself).
These uniformed agents only understand procedure, and they have procedures that spell out for them that anyone who tries to evade their questions is hiding something, and that people usually only hide criminal behavior...
If you want to be free, then you better understand the legal boundries of the law that governs THEIR behavior, as well as your own...
The coming cabal of Ron Paul Backers and non-nanny state progressives is being seen on this thread. We want a modest safety net(for example when our dunk brother wanders in traffic and can't pay his hospital bill)
No.
your drunk brother paid his money, drank his libations, and took his chances...
He is accountable for his own actions, regardless of how drunk he was. What is so hard to comprehend?
It is not heartless to expect people to take care of themselves and make well informed decisions.
Hey... speaking of drunken brothers- has anyone heard any updates about the old cat that flipped his golf cart at the Las Conchas turnoff Sunday night? That old dude was not having a happy Father's Day. He was pretty severely injured.
OK, there have been 20 pages of back and forth (and people getting banned) since the quote above was made, but this simple statement above needs to be addressed...
As a "US Citizen" you do not have ANY rights. You MUST understand that if you truly wish to be a free person.
You are of course correct. I would like to amend my statement to read "As a US citizen, I am simply asserting the rights the government claims that I have". That way the ball is in their court.
moore_rb said:
The term "US citizen" is not legally defined in the Constitution- it is only legally defined in the case law history following the ratification of the 14th Amendment.
Prior to the 14th, there was NO SUCH THING as federal citizenship. You were a citizen of one of the "Several States" that comprised the Union (either natural born within the state's borders, or naturalized via residency and the individual state's immigration process) .
Again you are of course correct. I was not wanting to get into the minutia of the term "citizen"; I was trying to edumacate some people on how best to deal with the pigs and going into a legal history lesson will lead to their eyes glazing over.
moore_rb said:
Master the legal language - it is the only defense you have against the legal march of tyrannical intention. The judges are powerless to help you once you declare yourself to be a subject of a corrupted legal system.
Walking into a court of law and claiming not to be a US citizen will probably get you no where. Remember they make the rules and the house does not lose. I'm not making a philosophical argument here, just stating the reality of the situation.
moore_rb said:
Or the one I used just yesterday in reference to my entire family when we were driving home:
"We're all citizens..." (notice I did not declare any state or legal jurisdiction- we could have been Canadians for all they knew, but they let us pass)
I just prefer not to answer them, and make sure I have video running in case they decide to go full-spectrum pig on me.
moore_rb said:
Pardon my disdain, but pleading the 5th in front of unformed officers who do not even understand the law they are supposed to be enforcing is extremely stupid. The 5th amendment is designed to protect you from incriminating yourself - this sends the red flag that you are a criminal who seeks to protect himself (or herself).
The USSC has ruled that the invocation of 5th Amendment rights cannot be used to construe guilt. If the pigs do so, and you have video, you do have grounds for a civil rights lawsuit.
"We want a modest safety net(for example when our dunk brother wanders in traffic and can't pay his hospital bill)"
is exactly how we expect a civilized society to work. Jerry's not available right now, but I can say without question that's how he really feels. That statement was directed at someone who will remained unnamed and who hypocritically talks one way while the world he lives in go's another.
You guy's crack me up with your perfect little senareo's with the video camera's rolling to catch every little phrase and word as if that's the way the world turns. What a bunch of hog wash. That's not reality, that's a soap opera.
Jerry's statement is exactly how we expect a civilized society to work.
It might be how YOU expect a civilized society to work, but I have no interest in subsidizing the consequences of another person's utterly stupid behavior, nor should I be compelled by your "civilized" society to do so...
The "perfect" world of today is one where the "victims" outnumber the "oppressors", and are trying to use Democracy (aka Mob-rule) to further the cause that the few who are successful are morally obligated to carry the burdens of the many who are actually parasites on a properly functioning civilization.
You want to talk about the real world? How about a place where a man who made a piss-poor decision and got behind the wheel after drinking too much and ends killing a family of 4 has the BALLS to stand before a Judge and say "Yes, your honor. I royally F__ked up big time, and I deserve whatever penalty or consequence society deems appropriate"; as opposed to "But Your honor... I'm a victim, and an addict, and if I had the help I needed then I wouldn't endanger other people.... boo hoo hoo. Please send me to rehab on the taxpayer dime... I need help."
Now THAT is complete, and contemptable, hogwash.
The non-innocent victim - a total fallacy.
Part of being "civilized" comes from understanding that no other human being is better than you. THIS is what should compel one human being not to spray another human being with pepper spray... get it?
That video you posted demonstrates that "civilized society" is a myth. You live in the real world. A place where some "people" feel that they are justified to treat other human beings as inferior animals (and this goes BOTH ways - calling a person in uniform a "pig" is no better or worse than a uniformed person zapping you with a Tazer (analogous to an electric cattle prod), or spraying you with pepper spray, for minding your own business.
Wrong is wrong, and the non-psychopathic brain knows how to differentiate right from wrong; but at the end of the day, acting wrong is just so much more fun than acting right. Or, God forbid, perhaps in the interest of acting right, you might end up being labelled as "righteous"... :mad:
Another piece of literature I would classify as a "must read" is George Orwell's Animal Farm.
Read it while listening to "The Trees" and "A Farewell to Kings" by Rush for greater emphasis on what it truly means to act "civilized".
It all boils down to personal choice. Making quality choices reaps rewards... making piss poor decisions yields unfavorable consequences. No degree of "society"
will ever change that.
Part of being "civilized" comes from understanding that no other human being is better than you. THIS is what should compel one human being not to spray another human being with pepper spray... get it?
Who in the hell are you directing that at Moore, me? You must be to busy thinking of clever things to say than actualy paying attention to my post's... WTFU.
Oh, you wouldn't know this Moore but the person who was banned was not banned because of anything that had to do with this thread. It had been determined throughout the years, and with many long and short term suspensions that he couldn't behave himself on this forum in what some might call a civilized way. He had came back posing as Silvia, but he's really a Sibel.
DMAC....when you call cops "pigs" and refer to people as Nazis you lose your credibility. It would be an understatement to say you have had some bad experiences with law enforcement, as most people have, but I have also had some bad experiences with attorneys, doctors, plumbers, and all sorts of other professions. I have also had good experiences with police officers, doctors, plumbers, and attorneys. Obviously you are some extremist or an anarchist or somebody with a huge "ax to grind." I kind of feel sorry for you as I often do with people who are so consumed with hate. In my opinion the original story about the open containers is BS. The reason I think that is that it really doesn't make sense and I am also basing that on my 19 years of police experience. I think DMAC's time would be better spent at an occupy movement protest where he can wear a mask and try to throw urine on police officers and not on a forum about a beach town that I love.
occupy movement protest where he can wear a mask and try to throw urine on police officers
You know as well as I do that 99.99% of the people protesting were civil and not threatening in any manor . Look back at your post about how most cops are good guy's etc, and if you're awake you'll see what a hypocrite you are. In other words, and like you say "you lose your credibility".
Vanessa: Holds Sybil's musical abilities, plays the piano and helps Sybil pursue a romantic relationship with Richard. She's a young girl, possibly 12 years old (that's what Richard says and Vanessa does not dispute).
Vicky: 13 year old who speaks French, a very strong, sophisticated and mature personality who knows about and has insight into all the other personalities, though Sybil does not. (states age when she is looking in the mirror at her doctor's home)
Peggy: 9 year old who speaks like a little girl. Holds Sybil's artistic abilities, often appears while crying hysterically due to Sybil's fears. She has many misconceptions; for instance, she does not know that she is in New York City and, instead, thinks she is in the small town that Sybil grew up. Peggy feels the greatest trauma from her mom's abuse, often feeling sad/depressed and unable to find happiness. Her biggest fears include the green kitchen, purple, Christmas, and explosions.
Marcia: dresses in funeral attire and constantly has suicidal thoughts and attempts suicide. Supposedly tried to kill Sybil in the Harlem hotel but was stopped from Vicky. She thinks the end of the world is coming, but what she really fears is the end of Sybil.
Mary: is Sybil's memory of her grandmother; she speaks, walks and acts like a grandmother, and is anxious to meet Sybil's grandmother.
Nancy: who kept waiting for the end of the world and was afraid of Armageddon. She's a product of Sybil's dad's religious fanatacism.
Ruthie: is one of Sybil's less developed selves, a baby in fact. When Sybil hears her mom's voice, she is so terrified that she regresses into Ruthie, an alter that parallels Sybil as a helpless, regressive, pre-verbal baby.
Clara: Around 8–9 years old. No info given.
Ellen: Around 13–14 years old. No info given.
Margie: Around 10–11 years old. No info given.
Sybil Ann: Around 5–6 years old. Very shy.
Male Personalities
Mike: built the shelf in the top of Sybil's closet to hide Vickie's paintings, which she does at night. He and Sid want to know if they can still give a baby to a girl like daddy did even though they are in Sybil's (a female's) body. He's around 9–10 years old.
Sid: wants to be just like his father, loves football. He's around 7–8 years old
Civil? You're joking right Kenny? Calling a cop a pig is like calling a black person a ****** or a mexican a wetback. Would that be civil? You should stick to your extremist left wing rants Kenny.
Have you seen me use that term, or even address that issue papi? If you want to attack me fine, but at least have a decent "talking point". LOL
Using that word, just like using Hitler as a description of someone takes the focus off what you have to say.
I'm sorry, maybe it was just DMAC. I should have stopped reading right away but I have to admit it was kind of interesting. From now on I'll stick to stuff about fishing and drinking....things I actually enjoy and stay away from the anti cop, political commentary.
I'm sorry, maybe it was just DMAC. I should have stopped reading right away but I have to admit it was kind of interesting. From now on I'll stick to stuff about fishing and drinking....things I actually enjoy and stay away from the anti cop, political commentary.
Not a problem. I think some of what both DMAC and Moore have to say has merit, but without balance. I myself em conservative in some respects, and I'm always searching for that, balance.
DMAC....when you call cops "pigs" and refer to people as Nazis you lose your credibility. It would be an understatement to say you have had some bad experiences with law enforcement, as most people have, but I have also had some bad experiences with attorneys, doctors, plumbers, and all sorts of other professions. I have also had good experiences with police officers, doctors, plumbers, and attorneys.
Police do not belong in the same group as attorneys, doctors, plubers, or any profession for that matter. Police represent the enforcement arm of the government and you do not willing pay them for their "services". If you have had a good experience with the police, good for you. For some people, a lot of people, their experience either changes or ends their lives.
Furthermore, the other group you mentioned (with the possible exception of attorneys) actually produce something and add value to the world. Police are just parasites who live off the backs of people who do produce something. The other thing that separates police from the group of tradesmen and professionals you mentioned is that if you don't want to do business with a particular person in that group, you don't have to. You don't get the same choice with the police. As I mentioned, I would be in favor of private police whereby it would be a profession and the engagement would be voluntary.
papi chulo said:
Obviously you are some extremist or an anarchist or somebody with a huge "ax to grind." I kind of feel sorry for you as I often do with people who are so consumed with hate. In my opinion the original story about the open containers is BS. The reason I think that is that it really doesn't make sense and I am also basing that on my 19 years of police experience. I think DMAC's time would be better spent at an occupy movement protest where he can wear a mask and try to throw urine on police officers and not on a forum about a beach town that I love.
OH gee, so you're a former cop. What a surprise. Yeah I am really not consumed with hate; if I were a hateful and violent person, I would probably be looking at a career in law enforcement. I firmly believe in "live-and-let-live", which as an ex-cop I am sure you can't relate.
Not ex, but current police officer. If you are a victim and don't want the police, you don't have to call them. But what about abused children, abused animals, or other people? How about is someone is robbed or beat up by a bully. Can we try and help them? You are right about one thing......I should not have compared police to attorneys or plumbers. They don't risk their lives for other people for 30 bucks an hour.
Not ex, but current police officer. If you are a victim and don't want the police, you don't have to call them. But what about abused children, abused animals, or other people? How about is someone is robbed or beat up by a bully. Can we try and help them? You are right about one thing......I should not have compared police to attorneys or plumbers. They don't risk their lives for other people for 30 bucks an hour.
Yeah, how about we set up a government plumbing service where the only plumbers have to be government plumbers. Don't want to call a plumber, hey you don't have to. . It was the wonderful US Postal service that gave rise to companies like FedEx and UPS. Nobody who wants to make sure something gets delivered uses the government postal service. As to abused children, if the current record in AZ is anything to go by, the last people you want to call for child abuse is the cops or CPS. As for abused animals, I believe we have private organizations that can handle that. And as far as I can tell, if you got robbed the cops are useless. If fact they'll tell you that if you really want to find the person who robbed you, put up a reward. My interactions with cops tell me there about as interested in solving property crime as they are in reading philosophy.
Oh and BS about risking your life for other people, that's laughable. Do you know that truck drivers have a higher on-the-job mortality rate than police? In fact there a whole slew of occupations with a higher rate of on-the-job mortality than law enforcement. And honestly, if the war on drugs ended tomorrow, not only would we be able to lay off a whole bunch of cops, the mortality rate would probably drop by half or more. Most of the time when cops get killed, they're not protecting anyone. The fact is that cops don't protect people and that's not technically their job.
Also, I don't call the cops to set up a suspicionless and unconstitutional checkpoint to waste my time, they do it because they feel like that justifies their existence
Just remember, when seconds count, the cops are only minutes (or hours) away.
DMAC.....your stupidity is too much....like I said earlier, I should have just stopped reading when I realized what a hater you were.....Wahoo,,,,5200 a month is big money??? I agree, cops in Mexico should make more money...it would certainly cut down on the corruption. Oh and not highway patrol....my experience is an urban, municipal one.
DMAC.....your stupidity is too much....like I said earlier, I should have just stopped reading when I realized what a hater you were.....Wahoo,,,,5200 a month is big money??? I agree, cops in Mexico should make more money...it would certainly cut down on the corruption. Oh and not highway patrol....my experience is an urban, municipal one.
Dude I have earned my money, paid for my own retirement and have never, ever accosted anyone. I don't want to tell (let alone force) people how to live, I don't rip people off and I treat people with respect unless they treat me otherwise.
Whatever fairy tale you tell yourself to let you sleep at night, just keep on believing that. The fact is that the advent of mobile video cameras and the overreach of the state will eventually bring an end to people believing the propaganda behind the current police fetishism and then you'll hopefully be treated like the social pariah you should be treated as.
Yeah, how about we set up a government plumbing service where the only plumbers have to be government plumbers. Don't want to call a plumber, hey you don't have to. . It was the wonderful US Postal service that gave rise to companies like FedEx and UPS. Nobody who wants to make sure something gets delivered uses the government postal service. As to abused children, if the current record in AZ is anything to go by, the last people you want to call for child abuse is the cops or CPS. As for abused animals, I believe we have private organizations that can handle that. And as far as I can tell, if you got robbed the cops are useless. If fact they'll tell you that if you really want to find the person who robbed you, put up a reward. My interactions with cops tell me there about as interested in solving property crime as they are in reading philosophy.
Oh and BS about risking your life for other people, that's laughable. Do you know that truck drivers have a higher on-the-job mortality rate than police? In fact there a whole slew of occupations with a higher rate of on-the-job mortality than law enforcement. And honestly, if the war on drugs ended tomorrow, not only would we be able to lay off a whole bunch of cops, the mortality rate would probably drop by half or more. Most of the time when cops get killed, they're not protecting anyone. The fact is that cops don't protect people and that's not technically their job.
Also, I don't call the cops to set up a suspicionless and unconstitutional checkpoint to waste my time, they do it because they feel like that justifies their existence
Just remember, when seconds count, the cops are only minutes (or hours) away.
Trust me, and yes I was in the anti war movement etc; the era of calling cops pigs. The post above reads better than some of your others for the simple fact that people aren't focusing on and making assumptions about who you are based on the word pig. There's a very good chance people's comprehension of what you are trying to say without using pig will improve, because it draws away from the context of the point you're trying to make.
EDIT..I just read the post above this one, and there might be a few other improvements to be made as well..LOL
I guess if they had a masters degree they should have been smart enough to be a cop or a firefighter! (same pension system) Lifes full of choices. I am not angry with people who are rich and I don't pity people who are poor. Teachers, firefighters and cops are just middle class people who are trying to do well for their families. Not sure why they get blamed when the economy goes south........
Not sure why they get blamed when the economy goes south........
That's a no brainier, because there easy targets for the union breaking right wing. Now why they are easy targets is complex, but it's based on ignorance for sure.
You're exactly right Kenny. Most cops are conservative Republicans, but the fact is that Republicans went after our pensions. When it comes to politics, it gets pretty frustating.
You're exactly right Kenny. Most cops are conservative Republicans, but the fact is that Republicans went after our pensions. When it comes to politics, it gets pretty frustating.
Yes, I was just sitting here thinking how hard it must be for you to find that balance I spoke of earlier when the party you vote for is trying to destroy a system that gave you what all Americans are looking for; Security for your family and a livable wage.
You're exactly right Kenny. Most cops are conservative Republicans, but the fact is that Republicans went after our pensions. When it comes to politics, it gets pretty frustating.
Public sector pensions are obscene, that's why people would want to go after them. Most people have to fund their own retirement.
Trust me, and yes I was in the anti war movement etc; the era of calling cops pigs. The post above reads better than some of your others for the simple fact that people aren't focusing on and making assumptions about who you are based on the word pig. There's a very good chance people's comprehension of what you are trying to say without using pig will improve, because it draws away from the context of the point you're trying to make.
EDIT..I just read the post above this one, and there might be a few other improvements to be made as well..LOL
You do have a point Kenny, but if I had refrained from using the term "pigs", do you think we would have had the level of discourse on the topic we're having right now? In some respect there is a reason shock-jocks are successful and that is when you shock someone's consciousness (or apathy or misguided world-view) you grab their attention.
I am angry about the injustice that has not only been heaped on my friend at the hands of the cops, but of other peaceful people all over this country. If the same wave of violence was being committed by a group like the Hell's Angels, people would be up in arms about it, but they're dulled into thinking that because the gang committing the violence is wearing blue then it must be OK. The fact is that sometimes righteous indignation commands attention.
You do have a point Kenny, but if I had refrained from using the term "pigs", do you think we would have had the level of discourse on the topic we're having right now?
I think that it's possible that it got the attention you were looking for at first, but I also think the overuse of the term had driven people away. Shut some down for sure!
I've always said that the CIA was the baddest most corrupt gang in world, and then we hire it's former leader to be our president. A long time friend of the Bin Ladens by the way. What does that say about us? What doe's it say about us when over 70% of our population thought it was Iraqis on those planes and not Sandi's. What doe's it say about me to think we still might have a chance with all the dumb asses out there? LOL
I think that it's possible that it got the attention you were looking for at first, but I also think the overuse of the term had driven people away. Shut some down for sure!
I've always said that the CIA was the baddest most corrupt gang in world, and then we hire it's former leader to be our president. A long time friend of the Bin Ladens by the way. What does that say about us? What doe's it say about us when over 70% of our population thought it was Iraqis on those planes and not Sandi's. What doe's it say about me to think we still might have a chance with all the dumb asses out there? LOL
Well I can tell you it says nothing about me personally because I didn't vote for the prick. I think it's uniquely American to love your country and hate your government.
After reading rplarry's post over on another thread, I might just have to reassess my thinking a little.:lol:
You are far too optimistic. People who make a comfy living usually don't care how many lives they ruin in doing so. Furthermore there are far too many people who think they have a god-given right to stick their nose in other people's business. Also, people don't have a clue about finances (see public pensions) so they're constantly strangling the goose that's laying the golden eggs trying to get more eggs out.
I could go on, but yeah, you need to rethink a bit.
I think it's uniquely American to love your country and hate your government.
As you well know, a true patriot must stand up against a corrupt government, and hopefully more will soon. Right now we've been maneuvered into fighting among our selfs while the corporations and the war machine (the real power) go unchecked and run this country for there own soulless benefit.
I could go on, but yeah, you need to rethink a bit.
You would have to have known rpLarry for as many years as I have, and read his post over on the New boat today kinda thread, page 6, to get my joke. It's turning into a hot little number over there. Take a break, and check it out.
You are far too optimistic. People who make a comfy living usually don't care how many lives they ruin in doing so. Furthermore there are far too many people who think they have a god-given right to stick their nose in other people's business. Also, people don't have a clue about finances (see public pensions) so they're constantly strangling the goose that's laying the golden eggs trying to get more eggs out.
I could go on, but yeah, you need to rethink a bit.
AKA REPUBLICANS, you're not allowed to take birth control! WHO GIVES A SH!T?!, I was raised Catholic and Im a real Catholic too or once was, not the twice a year Catholic for Christmas and Easter who has never been confirmed into the church. CHRISTIANITY IS RUINING THE COUNTRY. Obviously the SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE DOESNT EXIST. It's a shame that because the Republican base is christian they have to go after these TOUGH initiatives against women, like thats really where our country is going wrong right now, single women taking birth control. Friend of ours out in LA, really really christian, really really republican and what happens? No you dont say she got pregnant out of wedlock with someone that she inst even with anymore, heres the kicker she works for the republican party and is ABSOLUTE about birth control and abortion, pretty funny!! Im generally not concerned with how others want to live their life, I could give a sh!t, you want to party on the weekend and sniff cocaine and drink alcohol, have fun, Ill even tell you the hottest night clubs to go to. I dont even know how a Republican can look at themselves in the mirror while saying less government less government less government, HEY WE PASSED A LAW YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THIS OR THAT lolololololololololololololololololololololololol Do you Republicans hate the speed limit too because government is telling you how fast you are allowed to drive?! lol
I think it's uniquely American to love your country and hate your government.
As you well know, a true patriot must stand up against a corrupt government, and hopefully more will soon. Right now we've been maneuvered into fighting among our selfs while the corporations and the war machine (the real power) go unchecked and run this country for there own soulless benefit.
Don't forget the banksters. Goldman Sachs is really the government of the United States right now.
AKA REPUBLICANS, you're not allowed to take birth control! WHO GIVES A SH!T?!, I was raised Catholic and Im a real Catholic too or once was, not the twice a year Catholic for Christmas and Easter who has never been confirmed into the church. CHRISTIANITY IS RUINING THE COUNTRY. Obviously the SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE DOESNT EXIST. It's a shame that because the Republican base is christian they have to go after these TOUGH initiatives against women, like thats really where our country is going wrong right now, single women taking birth control. Friend of ours out in LA, really really christian, really really republican and what happens? No you dont say she got pregnant out of wedlock with someone that she inst even with anymore, heres the kicker she works for the republican party and is ABSOLUTE about birth control and abortion, pretty funny!! Im generally not concerned with how others want to live their life, I could give a sh!t, you want to party on the weekend and sniff cocaine and drink alcohol, have fun, Ill even tell you the hottest night clubs to go to. I dont even know how a Republican can look at themselves in the mirror while saying less government less government less government, HEY WE PASSED A LAW YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THIS OR THAT lolololololololololololololololololololololololol Do you Republicans hate the speed limit too because government is telling you how fast you are allowed to drive?! lol
Let me guess: you were a big fan of Rick "Frothy" Santorum, right? :lol:
Public sector pensions are obscene, that's why people would want to go after them. Most people have to fund their own retirement.
HAH! Most private sector people actually have to fund their own retirement AND fund their share of all public sector pensions....
Now, I'm not willing to go so far as to declare cops to be parasites.... Politicians yes, cops... eh, maybe the desk jockeys.
Here's where I come unstuck- why do cops, firefighters, and mailmen surrender part of their pay back as income taxes? Don't all public sector employees realize that 100% of their income (and therefore 100% of their tax burden) is already paid via the taxes incurred on the private sector?
DMAC is right- the private sector finances 100% of ALL the "productivity" of the public sector. Always has, always will...
Imagine the efficiencies that government could incur if they stopped assessing income taxes against public servants, and gave them a flat 28% paycut instead...
the net pay would be exactly the same, but the administrative overhead would reduce by 60%....
Imagine the efficiencies if we stopped assessing income taxes on everyone!
BTW the really big problem with public pensions is that they are defined benefit rather than defined contribution. There is a number of reasons for that, and none of them good from a financial management standpoint but the only place you ever find defined benefit pensions in the private sector are companies that are beholden to unions or heavily regulated by the government. There is a reason for that: any financial manager worth his salt and concerned about the long-term viability of the company they work for would never commit to a defined benefit plan. What our friend the ....er.... cop is probably going to find out is that 20 - 30 years from now municipalities will either have to stop providing any services all together or go bankrupt in order to reorganize and in that reorganization the public pension plans are going to be on the block. There is no way around it short of a huge dose of fiscal restraint on the part of the municipal governments combined with really good long-term growth (like above 5% say). Our boys in blue are going to end up coming out of retirement to be greeters at Wal-Mart to make ends meet.
Kenny this is what i came up with for sible. You lost me on that one!