Crossed going into Mexico Friday night about 9:00. Saw Inka coming north. Only a couple of cars. BUT... they made me pull the boat through x-ray. Had to loop around and get back to the x-ray machine. Just a hassle, no biggie. 1st time I've ever had to get x-rayed BY THE U.S. going into Mexico!!!!! Go figure!!!!
Yep, been there, done that. A few months back, came through with our trailer with the kayak and 4 - 55 gal blue barrels for water. Same thing, x-ray ON THIS SIDE!!! Except, they did not tell us anything, just "get out of the truck and stand over here". Finally, started talking to one of the guys standing around and he told us what was going on.
Yep, been there, done that. A few months back, came through with our trailer with the kayak and 4 - 55 gal blue barrels for water. Same thing, x-ray ON THIS SIDE!!! Except, they did not tell us anything, just "get out of the truck and stand over here". Finally, started talking to one of the guys standing around and he told us what was going on.
Did they "tell" you to get out of the truck, or did they ask if you would please get out of the truck?
The reason I ask is that a non-criminal "custodial investigation" requires your consent.
If they ask (or tell) you to leave your vehicle and surrender your possessions to them, you can legally refuse, and force them to place you under arrest...
Now, as the guy who has been handcuffed at the Sonoyta crossing 3 times in 3 years, I guess I shouldn't question their willingness to escalate the force factor.
In fact- because I have been handcuffed and detained so often, I have been researching the law, and I think I am pretty close to understanding the real boundries of their legal authority- and it all relies on your consent.
You are not a suspect until your Miranda rights are read to you- until that point, you are a "person of interest" that the Patriot Act permits them to detain, but ONLY with your consent. Your consent to their requests initiates a contract between you and the State.
I have been cuffed because I consented and allowed them to cuff me- I've never been read my rights.
If you do not consent, then they must arrest you and read you your rights, which opens them to possible legal consequence (but good luck finding a federal circuit Judge who will not pervert the law in order to favor the State- your case would have to go to the Supreme Court).
In fact, the lawyer I have worked with on this research has suggested that I can flash my passport to them, and before they say a word (it's crucial that you speak first) I can ask "Am I under arrest?", and if they say "No" then I can state "Then I am free to go." and they have no legal grounds to detain me. They can say "Well, we'd like you to stay while we check some stuff" at which point I can politely ask again "Am I under arrest?" and if they answer "yes" the 2nd time, then they would have to demonstrate to a judge the criminal evidence that changed their viewpoint and elevated me from "person of interest" to "criminal suspect" during that brief 5 second period...
In short- you are forcing THEM to produce state's evidence before they have found it, so if they chose to arrest and detain you, they would need to:
1) find contraband in your vehicle, or
2) plant contraband in your vehicle, or
3) Open the door to a false arrest civil complaint by you (which again, would probably have to go to the Supreme Court since every federal circuit Judge would probably summarily rule for the defendent in order to maintain the Patriot Act's legal smokescreen)
It's very fascinating- Ever since the 14th amendment, All federal legal authority within the borders of the US has been endowed by contract law based on the UCC, except within the court room, inside which Admiralty law reigns with the Judge as the master of his vessel (which is why every court room has a "name" affixed to the placard outside the door- the court room is effectively classified as a ship at sea.
A few years (maybe even 8 or 9) ago a friend towed a boat down to San Carlos for a friend that went fishing down there and didn't own a truck to pull it.He had done the same thing with many other Golden Valley friends and coworkers and they all had fun.They crossed the border etc. with no problem and that night in San Carlos while getting a beer out of the boat my friend found the hidden compartment that was filled with ammo the guy brought down with this trick on a regular basis.Not sure what ever happened to that guy but I do know he was still walking with a cane two years after that night.....
A few years (maybe even 8 or 9) ago a friend towed a boat down to San Carlos for a friend that went fishing down there and didn't own a truck to pull it.He had done the same thing with many other Golden Valley friends and coworkers and they all had fun.They crossed the border etc. with no problem and that night in San Carlos while getting a beer out of the boat my friend found the hidden compartment that was filled with ammo the guy brought down with this trick on a regular basis.Not sure what ever happened to that guy but I do know he was still walking with a cane two years after that night.....
. Which guy had the cane afterward? Hard to tell from the end of your story, sorry.
Now, as the guy who has been handcuffed at the Sonoyta crossing 3 times in 3 years, I guess I shouldn't question their willingness to escalate the force factor.
OK, now I'm impressed! Big fish are not all that uncommon, but that right there is still a work in progress, and working toward your goals is a admirable trait. I'll go fishing with you anytime, but were crossing in separate vehicles, OK?
as of lately I have noticed a few things that they (custom agents) are doing that seem questionable, however as I have to see them often I just go with the flow and DO NOT bring up anything that they are doing that seems weird!!
How was your fishing trip Stuart?
OK, now I'm impressed! Big fish are not all that uncommon, but that right there is still a work in progress, and working toward your goals is a admirable trait. I'll go fishing with you anytime, but were crossing in separate vehicles, OK?
Probably a prudent precaution on your part... :)
Just remember, the system is set up so the odds will always be stacked against the individual (in fact, the odds virtually guarantee that the individual will lose every time), so the trick, like Inka suggests, is to simply "go with the flow", and to know the collective rights of the group, because your individual rights can always be wittled down to a "who lives and who dies" scenario....
So I guess for me, 20 minutes in handcuffs is a lot less inconvenient than choosing to risk dying for Liberty (I can't believe I said that- I guess I'm no Patrick Henry after all)...
I crossed this afternoon, and picked the lane that is only for the passport cards (I only have a passport book).....the overhead sign on the lane was not visible since I was behind 2 of the trucks that were bringing the gear back from the lallapalooza concert....and the small sign was on the ground in front...again not visible until it was too late....I was apologetic to the agent with an explanation, since I had no desire for a secondary....and had no problems....not even a "scolding".....hey, sometimes I'll even kiss a$$.....
as of lately I have noticed a few things that they (custom agents) are doing that seem questionable, however as I have to see them often I just go with the flow and DO NOT bring up anything that they are doing that seems weird!!
How was your fishing trip Stuart?
Did they "tell" you to get out of the truck, or did they ask if you would please get out of the truck?
The reason I ask is that a non-criminal "custodial investigation" requires your consent.
If they ask (or tell) you to leave your vehicle and surrender your possessions to them, you can legally refuse, and force them to place you under arrest...
Now, as the guy who has been handcuffed at the Sonoyta crossing 3 times in 3 years, I guess I shouldn't question their willingness to escalate the force factor.
In fact- because I have been handcuffed and detained so often, I have been researching the law, and I think I am pretty close to understanding the real boundries of their legal authority- and it all relies on your consent.
You are not a suspect until your Miranda rights are read to you- until that point, you are a "person of interest" that the Patriot Act permits them to detain, but ONLY with your consent. Your consent to their requests initiates a contract between you and the State.
I have been cuffed because I consented and allowed them to cuff me- I've never been read my rights.
If you do not consent, then they must arrest you and read you your rights, which opens them to possible legal consequence (but good luck finding a federal circuit Judge who will not pervert the law in order to favor the State- your case would have to go to the Supreme Court).
In fact, the lawyer I have worked with on this research has suggested that I can flash my passport to them, and before they say a word (it's crucial that you speak first) I can ask "Am I under arrest?", and if they say "No" then I can state "Then I am free to go." and they have no legal grounds to detain me. They can say "Well, we'd like you to stay while we check some stuff" at which point I can politely ask again "Am I under arrest?" and if they answer "yes" the 2nd time, then they would have to demonstrate to a judge the criminal evidence that changed their viewpoint and elevated me from "person of interest" to "criminal suspect" during that brief 5 second period...
In short- you are forcing THEM to produce state's evidence before they have found it, so if they chose to arrest and detain you, they would need to:
1) find contraband in your vehicle, or
2) plant contraband in your vehicle, or
3) Open the door to a false arrest civil complaint by you (which again, would probably have to go to the Supreme Court since every federal circuit Judge would probably summarily rule for the defendent in order to maintain the Patriot Act's legal smokescreen)
It's very fascinating- Ever since the 14th amendment, All federal legal authority within the borders of the US has been endowed by contract law based on the UCC, except within the court room, inside which Admiralty law reigns with the Judge as the master of his vessel (which is why every court room has a "name" affixed to the placard outside the door- the court room is effectively classified as a ship at sea.
I am very fascinated with knowing my rights and I feel at least inside AZ and the city of Phoenix I know all of my rights and what the police can and cannot do. I have actually been asked to step out of the vehicle before and the cops wanted to search my person and vehicle. I let them search my person but not the vehicle. Well lets just say they were less than happy about this and tried to pull the ~~~ Dale Earnhardt~~~~ on me, "intimidate" and I refused as was in my constitutional right to do so. Well...20 minutes of them trying to Dale me up and there was nothing they could do. All 4 phoenix police officers had steam coming out of their ears but legally and ````THEY KNEW IT```` couldnt do anything. In fact, one of them actually violated my rights and opened my passenger door to ~~~~~~~~~~TAKE A CLOSER LOOK~~~~~~~~ which is a BIG `````NO NO```` and I called them out on it. They are only allowed to look, ````NOT TOUCH``` anything....after I called them out on it they looked extremely surprised. Still tried to `````DALE``` me one last time cause they couldnt do anything legally and then finally, ~~~~BOOM~~~~ had to let me go. Have a good night officers, culeros!
In saying all of this, I have to admit I know absolutely nothing about my rights near the border. Those guys scare me and from everything Ive heard and read it seems like they have the right to do whatever they'd like. My question to ~~~~007~~~~ `````ROGER```` Moore is, does the Border Patrol and or Customs have the right to a search of the vehicle ~~~~WITHOUT~~~ consent INSIDE AZ? I know they can search a vehicle without consent ENTERING into the USA from MEXICO but can they search without consent inside AZ either going North or South?
The ACLU says a "Constitution-free zone" exists within 100 miles of the US border, where DHS claims the authority to stop, search and detain anyone for any reason. Nearly two-thirds of the US population lives within 100 miles of the border, according to the ACLU, and the border zone encompasses scores of major metropolitan areas and even entire states.
then finally, ~~~~BOOM~~~~ had to let me go. Have a good night officers, culeros!
Exactly right- they either have to let you go, or arrest you. The thing to keep in mind, however, is that your refusal to consent to a search can be presented to a Judge as probable cause for your arrest, which basically exonerates them from facing a false arrest charge if they do take you into custody and still find no criminal evidence on you or in your car, so in circumstances like Joe's where they get all pissed off, then finally let you go, count your blessings and consider yourself lucky- because this is still a situation that can go either way. If they choose to arrest you, they have 72 hours available to hold you before charges must be filed (during which time a corrupt cop could "find" all kinds of contraband in your vehicle. Plus, and within that same 72 hours, they could also very easily put you before a Judge and he (or she) can wave their hand and rule you in contempt of court, and suddenly, you are incarcerated for as long as the court deems appropriate without a criminal charge ever being filed... You can be held in contempt of court for DECADES if the Judge decides not to clear the contempt charge. This is essentially how they kept Martin Armstrong in jail for SEVEN YEARS without a criminal charge, prosecution, or sentence ever being levied against him (paste "Martin A. Armstrong" into Google to read his story- it is both fascinating, and terrifying)
Bottom line, if the system wants you in jail, and enough members of the system corraborate with each other, then you could disappear from society for a long time over what started out as a very simple traffic stop.
I'm not saying anything like this is LIKELY to happen you; I am only saying it is POSSIBLE.
Knowing your rights is only half the battle- you also have to know what the law entitles them to do if you are uncooperative, and it can get pretty scary.
Mexico Joe said:
In saying all of this, I have to admit I know absolutely nothing about my rights near the border. Those guys scare me and from everything Ive heard and read it seems like they have the right to do whatever they'd like. My question to ~~~~007~~~~ `````ROGER```` Moore is, does the Border Patrol and or Customs have the right to a search of the vehicle ~~~~WITHOUT~~~ consent INSIDE AZ? I know they can search a vehicle without consent ENTERING into the USA from MEXICO but can they search without consent inside AZ either going North or South?
This is what the FAQ on borderpatrol.com says about that:
"When a Border Patrol Agent has "reasonable suspicion" that you are an illegal alien or that you were or are engaged in "criminal activity" then he can "stop" you. This "detention" can last for a reasonable time while the Border Patrol Agent conducts a lawful "investigative activity" to quickly confirm or dispel their suspicion."
So, the short answer to your question is No, they can not search you, or your property, on US soil without your consent unless you are a criminal suspect under arrest. Your rights are the exact same as they are within Phoenix or Tucson.
However, with one phone call to Mexican immigration (which they certainly have on speed dial), they can certainly make sure you are stopped again and checked 200 feet later on the other side of the fence (and under the shield of a far more oppressive legal umbrella to boot). :(
Of course, you are a free person because you have the power of choice as to which side of the border you choose to be searched on, right? :)
Here is more on what constitutes "lawful "investigative activity" as defined in the clause above (also copy/pasted from borderpatrol.com):
"The Border Patrol Agent will engage you in "consensual conversation". "Consensual conversation" is not interrogation. Consensual conversation is ... conversation."Good morning, how are you, that's a nice gun you have in your pocket", are all simply one side of a consensual conversation, but in polite society they do require that you make some verbal response. While the Agent is having this consensual conversation with you you are -- essentially -- detained. You and your vehicle cannot leave. It is very important that you do not attempt to leave. Leaving the Agent without his permission will almost certainly be met with what is called in the vernacular of the profession a "Dynamic Apprehension". Civilians might call it ….. a chase and a tackle. "
It all still relies on consensual interaction between the individual (you) and the agent of the State.
(notice the word State with the Capital "S"- there is a HUGE legal difference between a state (defined as a particular condition that exists at a specific moment in time) and a State (which is essentially a corporation that wants to separate you from your individuality as a person and classify you as a "citizen" aka "subject" aka "peon" aka "serf".
From this point on, Alice's "rabbit hole" drifts into how and why US citizens have not been classified as "free and sovereign individuals" ever since Congress passed the 14th Amendment, which established the USA as a Corporation, and legally defined the "US Citizen" as subjects protected by a common Sovereign based in the newly formed "District of Columbia". The 14th basically converted slave owners into "serfs" rather than converting slaves into "free people".
I realize I'm probably drifting into what most people think is crazy conspiracy theory at this point, so I think rather than writing anything else, I will end here, and encourage everyone to do their own research and formulate their own opinions...
The ACLU says a "Constitution-free zone" exists within 100 miles of the US border, where DHS claims the authority to stop, search and detain anyone for any reason. Nearly two-thirds of the US population lives within 100 miles of the border, according to the ACLU, and the border zone encompasses scores of major metropolitan areas and even entire states.
Also exactly right- but a "Constitution Free Zone" does not mean that Federal law does not apply- what it basically means is that citizens (subjects, peons, serfs) allegiant to ANY foreign sovereign (Legal Government Corporation) are subject to the legal oversight of the OTHER sovereign legal government corporation within this zone- this is the legal loophole that allows Federal (corporate) agents to detain/imprison "illegal" immigrants without allowing them to declare/prove their foreign citizenship and demand repatriation within the nearest embassy of their "home" country.
Just imagine how busy Mexican embassy offices would be if every citizen of Mexico who was "detained" within US borders were actually allowed their right of voluntary repatriation without facing US criminal charges... ?
Like I said- it's Alice in Wonderland. Once you start down the rabbit hole, it's a LONG way to the bottom. I hope you enjoy reading. :)
EDIT: I also ENCOURAGE everyone NOT to take my word for it- please do your own due diligence, and if you find ANYTHING that refutes, or challenges the accuracy of anything I've written here, PLEASE share it with me, and everyone else. I share what I learn freely, and I am a very open minded person who LIKES to be corrected when his knowledge is found to be in error. That's how learning happens, and I love learning...
The ACLU says a "Constitution-free zone" exists within 100 miles of the US border, where DHS claims the authority to stop, search and detain anyone for any reason. Nearly two-thirds of the US population lives within 100 miles of the border, according to the ACLU, and the border zone encompasses scores of major metropolitan areas and even entire states.
As I understand it that zone is also defined as extending 100 miles around all Ports of Entry, which means all international airports . I read a higher percentage of people living in this zone as well, 90% or so. Yes detain you without customary legal cause. I read there is some evidence that the FBI has been asking DHS for favors, detaining people and evesdropping when the FBI cannot legally do what they ask the DHS to do. It's scary.
As I understand it that zone is also defined as extending 100 miles around all Ports of Entry, which means all international airports . I read a higher percentage of people living in this zone as well, 90% or so. Yes detain you without customary legal cause. I read there is some evidence that the FBI has been asking DHS for favors, detaining people and evesdropping when the FBI cannot legally do what they ask the DHS to do. It's scary.
The more I read and learn about the Corporate Nation I live in (the one that supplanted the "Country" that was founded via the conquest of the former native "Countries"); the more I understand where the phrase "God help us all..." came from.
my nephew's unit in iraq treated anti maliki street protesting Iraqi Sunnis with more leeway than the wall street criminal protecting NYPD did with the 99ers he told me last week. 21 Arab bus boys with box cutters just got another Arizona boy killed in Afganistan protecting the boy lovin,heroin dealing stooge presidente of Afganistan; that made my grilling at the border by some semi-retard that should be busting shop lifters at Walmart small potatoes. \
I loved our ice agent throwing bales out his truck window too! Is there a stupider country on earth...oh there is but I can't say...
The Department of Defense announced today the death of a soldier who was supporting Operation Enduring Freedom.
... Spc. Michael D. Elm, 25, of Phoenix, Ariz., died Oct. 14 in Khowst, Afghanistan, of wounds suffered when insurgents attacked his unit with an improvised explosive device. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 26th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division, Fort Knox, Ky.
Young kid who grew up down the street from me We knew the whole family he was one of I believe 5 kids. It all seems so far away until it is someone you know.
Young kid who grew up down the street from me We knew the whole family he was one of I believe 5 kids. It all seems so far away until it is someone you know.
It doesn't even have to be someone close to you, or someone down the street.
Have you all noticed how many "in memory of" stickers there are in the back windows of cars all over the state of AZ? Start looking closely at the dates- most are 18-22 year olds...
If you start recognizing how many of those stickers you see, and then realize that Az is only one of 50 States, I think the statistics can start making sense...
We lost 2500 Americans on 9/11/2001.
Since 9/11, in Iraq and Afghanistan:
Total US military killed in action: 6000
Total US citizens killed (military, and civilian contractors): 8800
Total Americans wounded/injured: 46,000
Total US casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan "avenging", or "bringing justice" for the 2500 who died on 9/11: 60,800
so, we lost 2500 people (or sacrificed 2500 people if you believe 9/11 was a staged Mossad false flag operation- I'm not so sure I do), and since then we've further bankrupted the country, and sent 60,000 people (plus how ever many are on the line in Libya) to be killed or maimed defending what...?
Meanwhile, Larry Silverstein (the guy who bought the World Trade Center 3 months before the attack, and took out a 4 Billion dollar terrorism insurance policy on the property (which he only paid 1.5 Billion for) has become 2.5 billion richer in cash, PLUS whatever he makes on the value of the rebuilt trade center and memorial site.
Seems to me that our young people (many of whom are joining because they can't find a job) are putting their lives on the line so that the rich (Silverstein, Haliburton, the Bush family- the list is very long) can get richer riding on the backs of other people's "patriotism" - This my opinion only- I totally respect everyone's right to disagree.
I personally think a true Patriot, (the likes of Alexander Hamilton, Patrick Henry, Ghandi, or William Wallace and Robert of Bruce) should not be describing their enemies as non-english speaking foreigners on the other side of the globe... They should be describing their enemy as any blood sucking leach who seeks to profit from the act of depriving any other human being of their right to life.
If a person truly wants to "go kill them damn towelheads" and is willing to risk their own life in the exchange, then I'm cool with that. Hell, if I had advanced knowedge that someone was planning or intending my own demise, I would have no problem making them dead first.
But the economics and statistics that describe the true nature of all this madness just make me shake me head...
Above, Jerry said "Is there a stupider country on earth...oh there is but I can't say... " and I chuckled. But Jerry, If I were to share your sentiment, it would have to read:
"Is there a stupider NATION on earth...? oh there is but I can't say... "
a "country" is the land you live on- it is where your home is. It is that place which you would defend. I personally feel that the Sonoran Desert (from my home in Phoenix to the Sea of Cortez) is my country. I was born and raised here, and I would defend it (even violently) from external threat.
Roberto- I hope this also helps you understand better why I'm not interested in moving to Africa. I don't hate America, but I DO want to make it into what I think would be a better "place" for Americans (and everyone else, for that matter), as opposed to making it a better corporate "Nation".
A Nation is what the leeches want you to defend on THEIR behalf, and it really chaps my ass that the leeches make it harder (via fences, uniformed guards, and machine guns) to cross my home country in order to enjoy some time fishing on my boat, or eating some "real" carne asada, or drinking my favorite beer next to the sea. They can say they are doing it for my "safety", but frankly, I feel no safer now then I did when I was going to Rocky Point as a college student in the 80's... in fact, I feel less safe.
(EDIT: I feel less safe due to what's going on with the US Department of Homeland "Security" - on the Mexican side I feel pretty much as safe today as I did in the 80's- I keep my eyes open and stay aware of my surroundings; just as every alien in a land of different culture should)
But in America, the leeches have GOT to GO... again, my opinion only.
ok, this isn't the rants and raves forum, but I am ranting... so thank you all for your patience.
The American Dream has been destroyed. Now the American Dream is to work 40 hours a week, pay more into your 401k, get lousy healthcare and make a lower wage. The American Dream has turned into the American Survival! The American Dream has turned into make enough to survive and get bye, not middle class prosperity, suburban homes and Chevy suburbans...
Given the conditions as they are today Joe, I think you are absolutley right.
But, I also see what's going on with young people rioting in the Middle East and Europe, and demonstrating in Washington and New York...
What I hope this means is that many young people want to take the original "American dream" and turn it into a dream of prosperity for an entire planet of Humans. Our founders wanted the American dream to infect the world- let's hope they have finally succeeded.
The trick will be to bring about a 1776 style American Revolution world-wide without execssive bloodshed, but where the people take their power back from the corporate leeches before the leeches try to wrap us all up in their mega-corporate global empire where the bankers can issue money that is simply computer data (making it very easy to confiscate from you via taxation or contrived inflation), and where the war-mongers get to continue perverting the concept of "defense" by being offensively murderous in order to protect corporate interests, and the politicians can pass whatever laws they deem necessary to make everyone but them into criminals.
(Note that today there are laws on the books that prevent members of US Congress from being arrested, charged, or even implicated in insider trading on Wall Street. Why do all elected members of Congress walk out rich? Because they can legally trade company stock based on information that is illegal for the general public to have:
How can elected members of Congress be Patriots when they hide behind laws that protect them from the consequences of activity that THEY declare is criminal for everyone else?
In my view, this entire period in history could devolve into a battle between "our" vision of a New World Order, versus "their" vision of a New World Order.
My american dream was to be able to make a living with out accepting hand outs or welfare the country has more people living off the Govt. tit than ever before. What happened to go to school get a job (pay off student loans if you have them) start a family and live well. As I see it far to many people wanted the quick way out borrowed money they could never pay back on a home they should have never purchased then cry about how someone else has it better than them. I guess I was cut from a little diffrent cloth than some on the board. Worked hard learned my trade Started a small company 13 yrs ago with a 10k loan from the credit union treated customers and employees with respect said what I did and did what I said and now I am proud of what my wife and I have accomplished. From 1 employee in 2000 to 15 employees today from 2 machines in 2000 to 25 machines today. I can honestly say We did it without 1 govt hand out. Was I bummed out when all my friends were buying the $50k sand rails and all the toys, honestly hell yes. But now when they are living in a apartment and all the toys were sold at a fraction of what they were worth I laugh. Do I feel bad purchasing condos that are going to be reposessed or when I purchase a plane from someone who had zero planning for the future and now he is broke, no I dont. I have worked hard and now I am reaping the benefits of that work (at a much lower cost than a few years ago)
One more thing I could hire 3 more people if I could find someone who was qualified problem is after 2 years on un-employment they pretty much have to be re-trained.
Rob you have drank of the Fox news Nectar.....If you are such a friggin genius why did you buy a pigeon Coop!
I was at a wine tasting (couldn't believe it either) at Santo Tomas last weekend and there was a guy with a story similar to yours (hell I've been the smug genius twice before in my life at different places and different jobs too) This guy had 45 employees in 2006 and now has none.Smart,talented,skilled,started from nothing...now his best asset is a wife with a job.I suggest you read Michael Lewis's book Boomerrang. It has good good lessons for conventional wisdom sippers from the right and left about the nature of the crisis we are in.
AZ ROB said:
My american dream was to be able to make a living with out accepting hand outs or welfare the country has more people living off the Govt. tit than ever before. What happened to go to school get a job (pay off student loans if you have them) start a family and live well. As I see it far to many people wanted the quick way out borrowed money they could never pay back on a home they should have never purchased then cry about how someone else has it better than them. I guess I was cut from a little diffrent cloth than some on the board. Worked hard learned my trade Started a small company 13 yrs ago with a 10k loan from the credit union treated customers and employees with respect said what I did and did what I said and now I am proud of what my wife and I have accomplished. From 1 employee in 2000 to 15 employees today from 2 machines in 2000 to 25 machines today. I can honestly say We did it without 1 govt hand out. Was I bummed out when all my friends were buying the $50k sand rails and all the toys, honestly hell yes. But now when they are living in a apartment and all the toys were sold at a fraction of what they were worth I laugh. Do I feel bad purchasing condos that are going to be reposessed or when I purchase a plane from someone who had zero planning for the future and now he is broke, no I dont. I have worked hard and now I am reaping the benefits of that work (at a much lower cost than a few years ago)
One more thing I could hire 3 more people if I could find someone who was qualified problem is after 2 years on un-employment they pretty much have to be re-trained.
Jerry what does buying a condo have to do with anything? I purchased for convience when I get to Penasco I like to go in sit down and enjoy myself I have friends with homes in Las Canchos, Playa Encanto and some with trailers. I enjoy not having to paint clean or do repairs when I am on my mini vacations to the beach. Not saying I won't purchase a house at some point but that will be after I move some machines down and open up a facility in Mexico to do the work I lost when Honeywell and Gulfstream moved south.
and no I don't listen to Fox News I listen to everyone and make my own decisions .
My point was you seem to be saying people went broke because they aren't as smart or hard working as you are.Buying a condo at this time in RP makes one question whether your're the the 3 dimensional chess player type or just a harder working (and a bit lucky) checker player like the rest of us.
Great news that you are bringing your business to Sonora rather than China!!!
AZ ROB said:
Jerry what does buying a condo have to do with anything? I purchased for convience when I get to Penasco I like to go in sit down and enjoy myself I have friends with homes in Las Canchos, Playa Encanto and some with trailers. I enjoy not having to paint clean or do repairs when I am on my mini vacations to the beach. Not saying I won't purchase a house at some point but that will be after I move some machines down and open up a facility in Mexico to do the work I lost when Honeywell and Gulfstream moved south.
and no I don't listen to Fox News I listen to everyone and make my own decisions .
jerry I am not smart by any means just grew up having to work hard. Only reason I have to move stuff to Sonora is the Mexican Govt requires that any airline purchased in Mexico or for a Mexican owned company must have a certain percentage of the plane made in the country.. But then again so does every other country with the exception of our good old USA.
My american dream was to be able to make a living with out accepting hand outs or welfare the country has more people living off the Govt. tit than ever before. What happened to go to school get a job (pay off student loans if you have them) start a family and live well. As I see it far to many people wanted the quick way out borrowed money they could never pay back on a home they should have never purchased then cry about how someone else has it better than them. I guess I was cut from a little diffrent cloth than some on the board. Worked hard learned my trade Started a small company 13 yrs ago with a 10k loan from the credit union treated customers and employees with respect said what I did and did what I said and now I am proud of what my wife and I have accomplished. From 1 employee in 2000 to 15 employees today from 2 machines in 2000 to 25 machines today. I can honestly say We did it without 1 govt hand out. Was I bummed out when all my friends were buying the $50k sand rails and all the toys, honestly hell yes. But now when they are living in a apartment and all the toys were sold at a fraction of what they were worth I laugh. Do I feel bad purchasing condos that are going to be reposessed or when I purchase a plane from someone who had zero planning for the future and now he is broke, no I dont. I have worked hard and now I am reaping the benefits of that work (at a much lower cost than a few years ago)
One more thing I could hire 3 more people if I could find someone who was qualified problem is after 2 years on un-employment they pretty much have to be re-trained.
First of all, people sucking the "TIT" didnt create the biggest financial disaster ever, greedy businessmen did! The people handing out these loans were just as guilty as the people getting the loans. They FULLY KNEW EXACTLY what they were doing. On top of that there was a black market on wallstreet where people were chopping up loans and reselling them to foreign investors as MORTGAGE BACKED SECURITIES. My parents are BOOMERS and made it to Middle Class WITHOUT any help or TIT SUCKING as you put it. In fact, I DONT KNOW ANYONE TIT SUCKING or getting HAND OUTS OR WELFARE, but I DO KNOW a lot of people who lost a TON of MONEY because CORPORATE ASSHOLES are RUNNING THE COUNTRY.
Its such bullshit when people say, well... you know ROB I dont understand your point of view but I RESPECT that you have a difference of opinion. <WASH MY MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP><WASH MY MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP><WASH MY MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP><WASH MY MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP> that!!!! How can I respect a comment like that?! Yea thats right ROB, THE ECONOMY is ISH, there ARENT any JOBS and NOBODY has MONEY because TOO many PEOPLE are SUCKING THE GOV. TIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEA!!!!! THATS GOT TO BE IT!!!!!!! You're an absolute brainiac Rob.
Andrew Sullivan says what were saying "There is simply a limit beyond which economic inequality threatens democratic life, when the majority suspect that a tiny minority has fixed the system beyond repair through the existing institutions, and when the powerful minority begins to think of its own interests as distinct from the interests of its compatriots. That moment is one of real danger, especially when those elites can move themselves and their money more easily across the planet than ever before, and it is a sign of responsibility, not irresponsibility, to focus on it. "
people sucking the "TIT" didnt create the biggest financial disaster ever, greedy businessmen did! The people handing out these loans were just as guilty as the people getting the loans. They FULLY KNEW EXACTLY what they were doing.
You're right, they did. And, there were laws (Glass Steagal most notably) that would have prevented any of this; but those laws were repealled in the 1990's.
Mexico Joe said:
On top of that there was a black market on wallstreet where people were chopping up loans and reselling them to foreign investors as MORTGAGE BACKED SECURITIES.
It was not a Black Market- it was fully open, perfectly legal, and is still going on today- and it is not just MBS- there are synthetic derivatives drawn up on just about EVERYTHING today. In fact- if you have cash in a savings account, then someone somewhere is using your cash to make a leveraged bet about whether Greece will default or not...
Did you all know that last week Bank of America moved the liability for 53 TRILLION DOLLARS (that's 4 years worth of total US GDP) in derivatives exposure (aka casino bets) from its Merrill Lynch division over to it's customer deposit business? Why? so that the 1.5 Trillion in customer deposits would go to the derivative counterparties if BofA collapses. But don't worry, because the depositors would be made whole by the FDIC, right? Well, the FDIC is broke, so who provides the funding so the FDIC can pay off BofA's depositers...?
You do, via the Federal Reserve's printing press... and just who approved BofA's highly unethical behavior? Why, the very same Federal Reserve:
My parents are BOOMERS and made it to Middle Class WITHOUT any help or TIT SUCKING as you put it. In fact, I DONT KNOW ANYONE TIT SUCKING or getting HAND OUTS OR WELFARE
Just because you do not know anybody does not mean there is nobody out there. Food stamps (actually electronic debit cards now) are now being used by 40% of US citizens. Unemployment funding now runs for 99 weeks (The last time I was between jobs it ran for 20 weeks)
There certainly are people out there sucking the government tit.
Mexico Joe said:
THE ECONOMY is ISH, there ARENT any JOBS and NOBODY has MONEY because TOO many PEOPLE are SUCKING THE GOV. TIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEA!!!!! THATS GOT TO BE IT!!!!!!! .
I think the problem is that too many people think the government should provide them with what they want, and this goes BOTH ways.
Some people want the gov't to give them (and everybody) free healthcare and food stamps, while others want the gov't to give them unregulated financial markets that basically turn the markets into giant casinos where they are allowed to make unwinnable bets with other people's money...
Remember: The government does not PRODUCE anything. What the government gives to you, the government must first take from someone else; and "taking" from someone against their will is morally inferior behavior- One could go so far as to call it thievery.
I personally would simply like gov't to allow me to MIND MY OWN BUSINESS without getting in my way- unless my business is criminal, at which point I would expect the gov't to protect my neighbors from me.
Andrew Sullivan says what were saying "There is simply a limit beyond which economic inequality threatens democratic life, when the majority suspect that a tiny minority has fixed the system beyond repair through the existing institutions, and when the powerful minority begins to think of its own interests as distinct from the interests of its compatriots. That moment is one of real danger, especially when those elites can move themselves and their money more easily across the planet than ever before, and it is a sign of responsibility, not irresponsibility, to focus on it. "
Jerry- we might have different opinions of Paul Krugman, but we can agree on Andrew Sullivan's point that you paraphrased above... any wonder the IRS is turning the screws on foreign governments to provide financial data on ex-pat US citizens back to Washington?
Too bad that tax increases can/will do nothing to solve this nation's problems... We have a SOLVENCY problem, not a liquidity problem.
You could raise taxes to 100% on EVERYBODY in the US, and we would still need about 15 years to pay off the national debt (assuming you include unfunded future liabilities in your budget calculations)...
Unfortunatly, you would never get even one year of tax payments out of the population, since most people die without food after 21 days.
Call it like I see it Joe Nobody was forced to take a toxic loan out. How can anybody expect to ever pay anything off with an "interest only" loan? Now they cry that they didn't understand the terms. How about those people who overspent on credit cards? Were they forced to do that? The point I am making is you blame the big corporate ceo's and large financial institutions.I agree there was alot of bad stuff being done but there was greed on both sides from the lenders to the lendee's. Joe you know people as well as I do that bought homes there was no way in hell they could ever afford. There is more than enough blame to go around in this game. Greed is the worst of all evils
Oh "SNAP". Come on Mexico Joe let us know how you really feel, lol.
Rob you evil employer/business owner shame on you for suggesting that people should be responsible for themselves and their actions. Hey I just want to thank you for keeping the "tit" filled.
The whole "toxic loan" argument to me seems capricious and circular.
The borrowers did not understand the agreements they were signing- just like young kids rarely understand or comprehend the possible long term effects that first hit of crystal meth might end up having on them.
The lenders simply made it really easy for them to get that "first hit". You can call this predatory, but there is no record of anyone with a gun put to their head and hearing "sign this contract or else..."
There can be no legitimate "blame" on either party in these scenarios. Any agreement documented between two parties with signatures is a valid contract, regardless of whether one, both, or neither party actually understand the terms of the contract.
To me, the "responsibility" lies with the people that are supposed to enforce contract law and make sure that the contract environment is fair and balanced... in other words: the legislative and judicial process.
I think the lawmakers failed America when they repealed all the laws that would have prevented these kinds of risky contracts from coming to pass... The laws had been there since 1932, but they were deemed "obsolete" in the "complex" modern world.
The crisis we are in is merely due to natural economic law educating us to the fact that things are not really that complex after all-
Infinite economic growth using free money has never been possible, nor will it ever be possible.
Too much greed is bad and too little greed is also bad, we all need greed and most of us have it some more than others.
Greed is good, because it is the most important incentive for people to work hard, get a good education, start a business, or invest in a company. This makes people productive and contributing members of society. And in return, people are paid a salary, become more educated, and (hopefully) build wealth so that they can in return live a prosperous, more comfortable, and full life.
Unfortunately, this leads to three types of bad greed.
First, after some people have collected a large enough personal wealth, they retire. Thus making these people no longer a productive member of society, who use more resources than they provide. Sure, these people invest their wealth in stocks, bonds, real estate, and other financial investments; however these people are selfishly idle when they could still be contributing more to society. Of course not every retired person is able to work in the traditional sense, but they are still able to contribute. For example, instead of playing golf with other retirees in Florida, retirees could help their children by babysitting their grandchildren or even teaching their grandchildren how to fish or knit a sweater. In other words, it is alright to retire from work but do not retire from society. If someone is physically and mentally able to contribute, do so.
A second form of greed is for people to continue collecting wealth even after they have far surpassed the amount of money that they need for the rest of their lives. Some people leave so much inheritance that even their children and grandchildren can not possibly use all of it. This is why some people, such as Bill Gates, his wife (Melinda Gates), and Warren Buffet are donating most of their huge fortunes to charity. They understand the virtue of generosity, instead of succumbing to greed.
Third and finally, greed sometimes drives people to do unethical, immoral, and illegal things in the pursuit of more money. This is the greed that we find "evil".
Greed is typically considered the accumulation of wealth for personal satisfaction. It has no useful purpose except to become rich and to continue getting more wealthy. It is a strong desire in each and every one of us that is extremely difficult to overcome. Only through continuously contributing and donating to society can we find true rewards that are far greater than the illusion that greed provides.
How can we spread the greed? Take from those who have too much and give to those who have too little?
Call it like I see it Joe Nobody was forced to take a toxic loan out. How can anybody expect to ever pay anything off with an "interest only" loan? Now they cry that they didn't understand the terms. How about those people who overspent on credit cards? Were they forced to do that? The point I am making is you blame the big corporate ceo's and large financial institutions.I agree there was alot of bad stuff being done but there was greed on both sides from the lenders to the lendee's. Joe you know people as well as I do that bought homes there was no way in hell they could ever afford. There is more than enough blame to go around in this game. Greed is the worst of all evils
Rob, I cant argue with this comment one bit. Everything you have just said right here is true. However, regulations that were in place to prevent this kind of greed on both sides were taking away by a particular party that has particular ideals. People who overspend on credit cards are idiots regardless, that has nothing to do with the mess we're in. Im pretty sure we're not where we are because people were overspending on their credit cards.... just saying. Rob Im blaming THE BIG INSTITUTIONS because THIS WAS THEIR FAULT! Food stamps and welfare have nothing to do with where we're at as a country right now, sorry. Furthermore, welfare and food stamps have nothing to do with why the middle class is shrinking. Everything you said here in this comment is DEAD TRUE, however your other comment had no merit and was completely ridiculous. I said there isnt a middle class anymore and you said its because of welfare and food stamps. Thats when my jaw hit the ground and i wanted to go SOAK my HEAD in the TOILET for 3-6 minutes
What you're calling good greed, is what I call ambition.
Ditto. Ambition is good, but ambition taken to an extreme can yield greed.
From there, the whole discussion drifts into morality and ethics, which pretty much guarantees arguments, name calling, or possibly even fist throwing :)
AZ DAN Said "however these people are selfishly idle when they could still be contributing more to society. Of course not every retired person is able to work in the traditional sense, but they are still able to contribute. For example, instead of playing golf with other retirees in Florida, retirees could help their children by babysitting their grandchildren or even teaching their grandchildren how to fish or knit a sweater. In other words, it is alright to retire from work but do not retire from society. If someone is physically and mentally able to contribute, do so."
I love having these kids telling me what I should be doing during my GOLDEN YEARS. Let's see. I retired at age 76, am supporting a 22 year old grandson who just graduated from Teen Challenge for heroin addiction, he joined the staff there at min wage, sending a granddaughter through school to become a paralegal at age 35 and in between all their episodes I occaissionally find a few hours to go play golf with other retirees. How selfish can I get. Unfortunately I'm not the only grandparent, "Retiree" in that boat.
More and more grandparent retirees are becoming mommy and daddy to the kids. Baby sitting hell, they're raising them. Why, because of greed. There's more to greed than money, folks. There's drugs, sex, booze, stupid computer games and just plain laziness greed. Yes that's a form of greed. It's all my rights greed. Me first, someone else can worry about the kids.
When I was young, before the meteors killed off the dinosaurs, when we saw a succesful person, we said "What can I do to be like that." Today it's "What can I do to take what he's got"
Dan, don't get me wrong. I appreciate your success. I kind of think we were in same business in aerospace machining and such and I know from many years experience how tough a business that is. I guess my gripe is the comments about retirees sitting idly by. You should come down here and see the people volunteering and all. I'll even treat you to a round of golf.....
Opps, maybe I was thinking of Rob in the business part, but you're still welcome Dan. You guys all look alike to me.
The authors of Modern Political Economics are clearly mindful of these things. “The only hope for a rational future,” they tell us, “is a massive transfer in social power away from the ‘markets’ (i.e. the banks) to those who cannot be captured by them because they are too many to bribe, threaten and extort.” The “who” in this case is global labor, “those who earn by actually working (and who do not rely on speculating with other people’s money or default probabilities), independently of whether they live in the United States, China, India, Africa or Europe.
moore_rb said:
Jerry- we might have different opinions of Paul Krugman, but we can agree on Andrew Sullivan's point that you paraphrased above... any wonder the IRS is turning the screws on foreign governments to provide financial data on ex-pat US citizens back to Washington?
Too bad that tax increases can/will do nothing to solve this nation's problems... We have a SOLVENCY problem, not a liquidity problem.
You could raise taxes to 100% on EVERYBODY in the US, and we would still need about 15 years to pay off the national debt (assuming you include unfunded future liabilities in your budget calculations)...
Unfortunatly, you would never get even one year of tax payments out of the population, since most people die without food after 21 days.
When I was young, before the meteors killed off the dinosaurs, when we saw a succesful person, we said "What can I do to be like that." Today it's "What can I do to take what he's got"
I'm willing to bet that statement will probably ruffle some feathers, but for what it's worth, I completely agree with you.
The sad part is you guys are both tools of international bankers who just love it when the small folk look at the small picture.
So, after reading everything I've posted in this thread, that's the conclusion you come up with? I'm a small person looking at the small picture?
Fair enough, I guess. I don't have to agree with someone to respect their opinion.
Maybe I just haven't been able to impress you as much as Doctor "let's have a war with aliens" Krugman... :(
But let's see, I've posted nothing that isn't supported/validated by journalistic integrity, and on top of that, I've only posted info from sources that are intellectually honest and promote absolutely no left/right political partisan bias of any kind... sources like zerohedge.com and thedailybell.com, as opposed to linking to the NYT and thedailybeast.com- both of which are considerably left of center. (again- not that I think it matters, but I personally just can't stand being on only one side of the teeter-totter.)
You also posted the following:
The authors of Modern Political Economics are clearly mindful of these things. “The only hope for a rational future,” they tell us, “is a massive transfer in social power away from the ‘markets’ (i.e. the banks) to those who cannot be captured by them because they are too many to bribe, threaten and extort.” The “who” in this case is global labor, “those who earn by actually working (and who do not rely on speculating with other people’s money or default probabilities), independently of whether they live in the United States, China, India, Africa or Europe..
But, have you considered that the primary "author" of modern political economics (John Maynard Keynes) was himself endeared to a system where governments should be entitled to create credit, call it money, and then spend it freely on whatever expansionist proposals they see fit?
In fact, the that's the entire premise of Keynes (and Hayek's) work: credit and money are interchangeable, and there actually exists such a thing as a free lunch, just so long as it is the credit issuing government that calls it "free" ... I don't believe any of it. For every line of Keynes or Hayek's writing I've read, I've also read Murray Rothbard and Ludwig Von Mises, and their theories (that money is simply a proxy for the stored value of labor) make INFINITELY more sense to me.
You see, anyone who has ever lived in the real world, knows that their only real choices are to:
1) Earn their lunch,
2) Steal their lunch,
3) Beg for their lunch, or
4) Starve
So, it's not those damn international bankers that have corrupted my soul by making me believe that everything will be alright if I just keep my faith with them and their brilliant PhD Economists... :(
My soul was most impacted by those who believe that reality is what it is... and it is not what we IMAGINE it COULD be.
Just like the printing press made information more available to the masses and ushered in the end of the dark ages and brought about the Renaissance, so too today the Internet is making information even MORE readily available to the world... bringing with it similar pains and controversies as some try to cling to the "normalities" that they knew before, while others try to use the technology to gain unfair influence.
Jimmy Buffet baby... changes in latitude, changes in attitude. Nothing feels quite the same. The man's a genius.
AZ DAN Said "however these people are selfishly idle when they could still be contributing more to society. Of course not every retired person is able to work in the traditional sense, but they are still able to contribute. For example, instead of playing golf with other retirees in Florida, retirees could help their children by babysitting their grandchildren or even teaching their grandchildren how to fish or knit a sweater. In other words, it is alright to retire from work but do not retire from society. If someone is physically and mentally able to contribute, do so."
I love having these kids telling me what I should be doing during my GOLDEN YEARS. Let's see. I retired at age 76, am supporting a 22 year old grandson who just graduated from Teen Challenge for heroin addiction, he joined the staff there at min wage, sending a granddaughter through school to become a paralegal at age 35 and in between all their episodes I occaissionally find a few hours to go play golf with other retirees. How selfish can I get. Unfortunately I'm not the only grandparent, "Retiree" in that boat.
More and more grandparent retirees are becoming mommy and daddy to the kids. Baby sitting hell, they're raising them. Why, because of greed. There's more to greed than money, folks. There's drugs, sex, booze, stupid computer games and just plain laziness greed. Yes that's a form of greed. It's all my rights greed. Me first, someone else can worry about the kids.
When I was young, before the meteors killed off the dinosaurs, when we saw a succesful person, we said "What can I do to be like that." Today it's "What can I do to take what he's got"
Dan, don't get me wrong. I appreciate your success. I kind of think we were in same business in aerospace machining and such and I know from many years experience how tough a business that is. I guess my gripe is the comments about retirees sitting idly by. You should come down here and see the people volunteering and all. I'll even treat you to a round of golf.....
Opps, maybe I was thinking of Rob in the business part, but you're still welcome Dan. You guys all look alike to me.
Yea don't lump me in with that greedy evil business owner Rob! Golf sure when I get my check from the "breast" aka "tit" the end of the month I'll be there. Rob will need to put in a few more hours to pay his taxes so he should be working.
Yea don't lump me in with that greedy evil business owner Rob! Golf sure when I get my check from the "breast" aka "tit" the end of the month I'll be there. Rob will need to put in a few more hours to pay his taxes so he should be working.
That is ok Dan I will keep working to keep the "TIT" full but I hope I am sure glad I get all those tax credits for owning all the properties in Mexico seem the govt considers foreign property as a tax write off. Just hope My 6 figure accountant can figure out how to write off that new plane and pilot. I sure hope there is someone to feed the TIT for when I get to your age. LOL Maybe some time I will learn how to play golf...
GV Jack You are the funniest old turd! i thought Ed McMahon was dead?
Mr. Moore, as I'm sure you see as i do there are a lot of areas Progressives and Libertarians can agree....getting out of this mess isn't one of them. In a world where China exists as a wild card the money men don't have an interest in playing fair.We are dealing with an international criminal conspiratorial plot and you worry about me buying Mad Dog with my food Stamps!!!!
GV Jack said:
Wow, I couldn't have said that better, Robert. Basically because I couldn't have said it at all.
I have no idea what the heck you guys are talking about other than stealing lunch. Also, I have more important things to beg for.
Actually, I'm a little ticked at Jerry because I think he said something about a small tool or something like that.
I already put in my two cents so I'm gonna sit back and watch the battle of the intellects. I do prefer your authors for what it's worth.
i loved this <WASH MY MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP><WASH MY MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP><WASH MY MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP><WASH MY MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP><WASH MY MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP><WASH MY MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP><WASH MY MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP> Thread!...Now i have to sign off to read my Ron Paul propoganda from my man Moore while eating a Steak and drink a beer i shop lifted from Safeway in honor of a certain plucky 15 year old girl we all know and love!!!!!
Now i have to sign off to read my Ron Paul propoganda from my man Moore
Sounds good :wink:
Meanwhile, I'll go read something about the "Prince of Kenya's" next latest and greatest plan to break the backs of the evil criminal international banker cabal... Oh wait, that's right- his teleprompter never mentions anything about fiscal policy unless it involves inventing more US dollars (and therefore more US inflation) to fund companies that end up going bankrupt 8 months later (Google "Solyndra"), or using it to try and smuggle weapons across the border into the hands of dangerous men so he can pin it on the war-mongers and use it as leverage in his attack on the 2nd Amendment. (Ggogle: operation fast and furious)
But, I'm sure when he actually gets around to taking on the evil global New World Order banking families he'll be victorious.
Oh, that's right- George Soros (the zionist Billionaire who admitted to aiding the Nazi's by ratting out his Jewish Hungarian neighbors, and actually claimed the experience was "exhilarating") is one of Obama's key global economic advisors.
So, the Kenyan with the Indonesian education is going to work with the self-conflicted Hungarian Jew to bring fairness back to global markets... Yeah, that oughta work.
Not sure where this guy is coming from but I gave him the following shot "Posted by corvid on 10/25/11 11:33 AM
Somehow I suspect all you guys that write for this blog sell gold or survival food to the rubes. Oh and lose the sweater vest Tony... it makes you look like a Gypsy King"
moore_rb said:
I warned you all 3 days ago.... Alice in Wonderland. :)
The Red Queen was not who she said she was (ever wonder why Lewis Carrol called her the "Red" Queen? Coincidence? :) )
Anyway - Here is an article I read that I think does a great job of describing what is going on in the world.
Just like the printing press made information more available to the masses and ushered in the end of the dark ages and brought about the Renaissance, so too today the Internet is making information even MORE readily available to the world... bringing with it similar pains and controversies as some try to cling to the "normalities" that they knew before, while others try to use the technology to gain unfair influence.
Jimmy Buffet baby... changes in latitude, changes in attitude. Nothing feels quite the same. The man's a genius.
Not sure where this guy is coming from but I gave him the following shot "Posted by corvid on 10/25/11 11:33 AM
Somehow I suspect all you guys that write for this blog sell gold or survival food to the rubes. Oh and lose the sweater vest Tony... it makes you look like a Gypsy King"
Well, I can't say I understand how fashion sense is related to understanding global economic and societal trends... but the Dailybell is really more about trend analysis and societal themes (and memes). Modern Progressivism is just another meme they explore.
I mean, since when do matters of personal taste (like sweater vests or condos versus houses) justify self-righteousness...? I guess that's why if I had to pick a politcal label for myself I have to use Libertarian. I simply don't CARE what people wear, or how they choose to live their lives- just so long as they grant me the same privilege. I do enjoy reading/hearing what people think - I would think that should be fairly obvious by how much time I've put into this discussion.
When you bag on Ron Paul in one breath, and then you bag on the criminal global bankers in another, Do you not realize that Ron Paul is the candidate who MOST agrees with you about the unbalanced influence the bankers have on society? But I digress... I'm not here to push the Ron Paul campaign- if the election were held today I'd probably vote for Herman Cain- only because I've seen what a Black President who is clueless about business can do- I'd love to see what a Black President who has actually accomplished something in his life could do... Not that I even care whether a candidate is black or not, but I do know that other people seem to care, so it would be interesting to see how that would go...
My only rub against the progressive mindset Jerry is the elitism factor. I see it from your man in the WH when he blames everyone else for the fact that none of his "plans" are having the intended effects, and I see it from the progressive "this time it's different" Economists (like Krugman, Roubini, et al) when they declare that the best way out of a global debt crisis is to fire up the printing presses and create more debt (or, to fire up the war machine- a seemingly complete contradiction to the whole premise of progressivism. Peace from the barrel of a gun? Didn't Lyndon Johnson teach this country anything about how impossible that is?)
If an idea is really sound in the minds of everyone, then it will stand on its own merit- it will not require the elitist mantra and all the associated demagoguery...
If the Progressives were accurate in their assessments of society, then their ideas would be working, yes? To declare that "We have all the answers, but you small minded little people are to obtuse to recognize our intellectual and emotional superiority" is a cop-out... as is the whole "We inherited your mess, and now we're trying to fix it and you are getting in our way".... BAH.
The only things Obama inherited were the Patriot Act, GWB's two wars and a ton of debt- and his actions ever since have been to expand Homeland Security into the monstrosity it is today (which was the original topic of this thread if I remember correctly :) ), and also to take the wars on the road to Libya (and seemingly to Iran eventually), and to take what was once only monumental debt and turn it into catastrophic debt; and along the way he passed a socialist healthcare plan that will probably go down as the most unpopular US legislation in history (a HUGE feat considering what a massive abomination the Patriot Act was/is).
I'm no dummy, but even if I WAS a dummy, I'd still be able to see that "Hope and Change" in theory has yielded "unemployment, anxiety, and apprehension" in practice.... and I'd be getting pretty tired of the elitists saying "Trust us- we know what will work better than you do, so we're going to rob from Peter, and pay Paul (for doing nothing)"
With that, I'm drifting right back to post #27 on page 3 of this thread... leeches are bad for productive society, and the only thing worse than a leech is a leech who desperately thinks that his host can not survive without him.
The leeches have got to go.
Ok now I'm repeating myself... so with that I will sign off, and will graciously extend "the last word" to whomever wants it (unless they ask a question- I can't stop myself from responding to questions :) )
Herman Cain.....really......hey he wants to let the bankers do it to us again.......
moore_rb said:
Well, I can't say I understand how fashion sense is related to understanding global economic and societal trends... but the Dailybell is really more about trend analysis and societal themes (and memes). Modern Progressivism is just another meme they explore.
I'm doing good... aside from the fact that I am blah-blah-blah' ing in this forum when I should be getting some work done.... :) If I don't dig out from under this pile my boat may never see the Sea of Cortez again. :(
But I guess having too much to do (and getting paid for it) is better than the alternative.
This from an article about one of the Tea Party guys wanting to form a super pac:
This argument builds on the Supreme Court's 2010 ruling in Citizens United v. FEC that contributions to independent groups making independent electoral expenditures do not create the appearance of corruption and, therefore, cannot be restricted by the government
So it's ok if it is corrupt but does not create the appearance of corruption. jThat would be especially if you are a Tea Partier. Appearance is everything.
In his journal, Detty repeatedly urged the buyers - young Tucson men with connections in Caborca, Sonora, Tijuana or Sinaloa - to move the guns across the border fast.
[...] Gwinn told agents in Tucson that they should delay him until his cases were through the courts. Detty didn't like that and declined to do any more work for the prosecution, saying in an angry May 22 email, "I'd be happy to give that (informant pay) money back if you'd just leave me alone. Would you take $16,000 to have cartel (low-lifes) in your living room?"
So it's ok if it is corrupt but does not create the appearance of corruption. That would be especially if you are a Tea Partier. Appearance is everything.
Haha, except maybe for those pesky, sweater vest wearing Libertarians at the dailybell, right Jerry? :cool:
I personally think party affiliation is irrelevant- corruption is endemic to politics in general. Anyone who claims they represent the Tea Party, and yet they are trying to form an organized Super PAC are showing that they are still cogs in the political machine.
Real change will begin when people realize that the political machine never delivers what it promises. Maybe then they will grow bored with feeding it energy (and money)...
I don't care about party politics, or Tea Parties, or #OWS, etc, but I do care about the fact that there are people out there who are not having a good time, and the political machine is trying to gain their support by promising them everything that the political machine can not deliver.
In his journal, Detty repeatedly urged the buyers - young Tucson men with connections in Caborca, Sonora, Tijuana or Sinaloa - to move the guns across the border fast.
[...] Gwinn told agents in Tucson that they should delay him until his cases were through the courts. Detty didn't like that and declined to do any more work for the prosecution, saying in an angry May 22 email, "I'd be happy to give that (informant pay) money back if you'd just leave me alone. Would you take $16,000 to have cartel (low-lifes) in your living room?"
That's a very interesting article... and Bravo Gringo for bringing the thread back onto it's original topic.
What I have to ask is: If the ATF knows that other government agencies are moving guns into Mexico, then HOW on Earth is X-Ray'ing everyone who is NOT a government agent going to help...? :think:
(I'll probably end up getting handcuffed at the border again just for asking that...)
Robert Sez: I personally think party affiliation is irrelevant- corruption is endemic to politics in general. Anyone who claims they represent the Tea Party, and yet they are trying to form an organized Super PAC are showing that they are still cogs in the political machine.
I could not agree more. I object to being categorized. I used to say I had my own political party, the "Creative Anarchists".
There is just no simple solution to the knot the US political system is in. The oddest damed thing about it is that despite all that, it seems to be the best system available and from my reading it has always been the same, mas o minus. It reflects the dynamics of a large group of human beings when they get together for any purpose. What needs to be improved is the feedback loop from the averge schmoe in the street to the powers that be. I am thinking of a device that we could all carry, maybe wired into the brain's dissatisfaction centers, the would generate an increasing level of power, which devices could be wired directly to the most sensitive part of the human anatomy of the elected officials. So as the masses dissatisfaction grows, so grows the electrical stimulation and the discomfort of the politicians.
Robert Sez: I personally think party affiliation is irrelevant- corruption is endemic to politics in general. Anyone who claims they represent the Tea Party, and yet they are trying to form an organized Super PAC are showing that they are still cogs in the political machine.
I could not agree more. I object to being categorized. I used to say I had my own political party, the "Creative Anarchists".
There is just no simple solution to the knot the US political system is in. The oddest damed thing about it is that despite all that, it seems to be the best system available and from my reading it has always been the same, mas o minus. It reflects the dynamics of a large group of human beings when they get together for any purpose. What needs to be improved is the feedback loop from the averge schmoe in the street to the powers that be. I am thinking of a device that we could all carry, maybe wired into the brain's dissatisfaction centers, the would generate an increasing level of power, which devices could be wired directly to the most sensitive part of the human anatomy of the elected officials. So as the masses dissatisfaction grows, so grows the electrical stimulation and the discomfort of the politicians.
Robert Sez: (I'll probably end up getting handcuffed at the border again just for asking that...)
Your email has beed forwarded to the proper authorities. They have to arrest someone you know, can't just be sitting around on their hands, does not look good, so thanks for volunteering you time. It would help them a lot if you would just carry one little bullet you know. Show a little support here.
How dumb is this guy? Obviously you all know that Obama is my man so it has nothing to do with race. Herm "the germ" Cain is a pizza franchise owner, not an educated candidate that would make this country better. He doesnt even understand what contradiction is.....
THE LOOK ON THE GUYS FACE AT THE 55 second MARK IS ABSOLUTELY PRICELESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I THOUGH WE ALREADY LEARNED OUR LESSON and now all I HEAR less than 4 years later is how we need a BUSINESS MINDED INDIVIDUAL IN THE WHITE HOUSE........... HELLO PEOPLE DO WE NOT REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED WHEN BUSINESS ran the country into the GROUND????????!!!!!! THIS GUY IS A PIZZA JOCKEY not a PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
THIS GUY IS A PIZZA JOCKEY not a PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think ANY of them are Presidential candidates, quite frankly.... and that includes the guy in the White House. :stir:
To clarify my earlier post, I only said I would consider voting for Cain- just to see how it went- I didn't say I thought he would make a good President. I don't really think any of them would make good Presidents. Trying to choose the best horse at the glue factory is just not my cup of tea.
To be fair- Ron Paul is a man of principle- he does not shift his viewpoints based on which direction the political breeze is blowing, and I think that is an admirable trait; but part of being President involves solid communication, and an iron jaw- Ron Paul rants a little too much for me (HAHAHAH - that's the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it...? )
Why doesn't Alan Grayson from Florida run for the Dems?
Why is Chris Christie ignoring all the the Republicans that are begging him to jump into the race?
Personally, I think either one of these cats would completely BLOW AWAY the entire field of current options.
Give me a candidate who can show that they will not abandon their character and principles, and can stand at a podium and deliver their viewpoints/philosphies from the heart (JFK or Reagan style)- instead of reading their viewpoints from a teleprompter like the weekly guest host on Saturday Night Live...
Robert Sez: (I'll probably end up getting handcuffed at the border again just for asking that...)
Your email has beed forwarded to the proper authorities. They have to arrest someone you know, can't just be sitting around on their hands, does not look good, so thanks for volunteering you time. It would help them a lot if you would just carry one little bullet you know. Show a little support here.
Chris Christie believes in Gun Control and Herman Cain is black. Neither one would get the Republican nomination. Cain cause hes black, and Chris cause hes against guns.