Cartel Shootout - Sounds like it was Southwest of Nogales

tequilatodd said:

don't take this the wrong way anyone........but maybe they will just kill each other off and then we won't have to deal with this crap anymore
Looking on Google Earth, this happened about 125mi from RP. I don't see it as reason to not go. If they were coming up from Sinaloa, they never even came close. One of my favorite places it Mazatlan. I would be more worried about going there than RP. I have been offered to buy drugs there in the past and never been approached in RP

Stuart said:

Fox news (Channel 10) just reported on this shootout saying 21 people were confirmed dead. They did not give a specific location, only "12 miles from the border in an area known for drug and human smuggling." Still the graphic they showed looked VERY close to Sonoita. Not good at all. Just hearing that is going to make the average gringo think there is a war going on. Hell, THERE IS a war going on if 21 people are dead!!

azbeachboy said:

Are you related to jerry?

Encanto said:

My kid saw this on Yahoo, thought I would post it.

Not trying to antagonize anyone; 29 were killed, I just wonder how many were directly involved.

That was my first post, thought the information may be helpful.

Encanto said:

My kid saw this on Yahoo, thought I would post it.

Not trying to antagonize anyone; 29 were killed, I just wonder how many were directly involved.

That was my first post, thought the information may be helpful.

anitacoffee said:

Updated numbers are 30 dead and 40 wounded in this shoot out.

PitiquitoRosy said:

This wasn't near Sonoyta. It happened near Sasabe, about 20 kilometers from the border. Caborca and Nogales have actually seen a decrease in violent deaths so far this year.

InkaRoads said:

Usually, bad people are not the brightest stars in the sky and on top of that give them guns and there you go an 1800's shootout!! somebody mention to me the other night over some beers, maybe what needs to happen is for the people of Mexico to stand against them, the bad people, and hopefully all will be over with like it happen in Colombia, mmmmh!! arepas de queso and a cup of coffe!!

Stuart said:

Fox news (Channel 10) just reported on this shootout saying 21 people were confirmed dead. They did not give a specific location, only "12 miles from the border in an area known for drug and human smuggling." Still the graphic they showed looked VERY close to Sonoita. Not good at all. Just hearing that is going to make the average gringo think there is a war going on. Hell, THERE IS a war going on if 21 people are dead!!

rockyptjoe said:

.....but we're not talking a citizenry that is armed the way we are in the US......

InkaRoads said:

I do not think they were armed in Colombia as we are armed in USA neither!! in comparacense you might say that Mexico is closer to resemble any thing on Colombia than USA.
Anita, stop giving us wrong info!!!!

jerry said:

yep go to the gun show at the Pima County Fairgrounds and stick around for the day. Mexican guys buy assault rifles from" individual" sellers and goes to car and dumps it in the trunk with the other 10 he's already bought. Hey I like and own lots of weapons but this gun show sales scam arms the lower level narcos.

mexicomama said:

So getting ready to book my condo for July 18, now I'm scared again. Stuart, you seem like you are in the know. What are your thoughts on traveling down to PP? I realize this occured closer to nogales.

Stuart said:

Rosy, you missed my point completely. It could have been on Mars! The news report on TV last night DID NOT give a location. They put up a graphic with a red dot on it. The dot was just south of the border and, for anyone that has ever been to Rocky Point, looked to be VERY close to Sonoita. Probably the same graphic they use whenever they talk about Rocky Point. Media distortion? Maybe. Misinformation? Definitely.

"Caborca and Nogales have actually seen a decrease in violent deaths so far this year." Uhhhhh... there's something missing here, too. "...while Sonoita and Puerto Penasco have seen a marked increase."

Let's be honest, shall we, instead of trying to spin things away? I'm actually starting to understand Sub's frustration. 21 people dead is a major deal. Yet, it gets laughed off here as "an old West shootout" and "don't worry, they weren't trying to shoot YOU"?? What in the hell??

mexicomama said:

So getting ready to book my condo for July 18, now I'm scared again. Stuart, you seem like you are in the know. What are your thoughts on traveling down to PP? I realize this occured closer to nogales.

mexicomama said:

So getting ready to book my condo for July 18, now I'm scared again. Stuart, you seem like you are in the know. What are your thoughts on traveling down to PP? I realize this occured closer to nogales.

PitiquitoRosy said:

I happen to agree with you that this is serious. I'm writing an editorial (in Spanish because I now have a weekly segment on internet radio) about this. I'm not in spin-mode. You've all read my other posts and know that I love that entire part of Sonora. There are two issues here. We seem to agree that this tragedy shouldn't affect travel plans for those coming to Penasco this weekend. Aside from that, we need to pay attention to what happens next in this entire region...

If Sub is gone, let him rest in peace. You know how to be frustrated on your own without invoking him. That's just kind of like saying, "now I see why so-and-so was so bothered by you" to someone. Not cool.

Stuart said:

Dear Ms. Mama,

I'm only "in the know" based on my own travels, my friends travels, and a network of other folks that all share information, including this forum. My thoughts are this at the moment - you'll probably be just fine. Personally, I was planning on going this weekend, but cancelled yesterday. This had nothing to do with the shootings and everything to do with the weather, which was showing strong winds and high seas for the weekend, which ruins the fishing trip I had planned. I don't go to just lay on the beach or hang out and drink; I can do that much cheaper in the pool in my backyard! God cursed me with this addiction called "fishing" and if I can't do that while I'm in Penasco, I'm like a junkie without a fix.

I say go, enjoy the time with your husband, and have fun! My wife and I flew to Mazatlan for a week last month and we had a great time. Not for one second did I not feel safe. Everyone was super friendly, welcoming and glad to see us. Too glad to see us, in some cases (damned timeshare salesmen would not take NO for an answer when they approached you on the street). I'm sure you'll find the same in Penasco (the atmosphere that is, not timeshare salesmen).

mexicomama said:

Thanks Stuart. I just needed a little extra pep talk. We have been going down for 6 years, and haven't been recently. Some of the things happening there were giving me some worries. Tequilatodd will be happy to know I will be booking the condo! :) Thanks again!

jerry said:

yep go to the gun show at the Pima County Fairgrounds and stick around for the day. Mexican guys buy assault rifles from" individual" sellers and goes to car and dumps it in the trunk with the other 10 he's already bought. Hey I like and own lots of weapons but this gun show sales scam arms the lower level narcos.

PitiquitoRosy said:

If I get any more information about this or other events, I'll be sure to bring them to you guys. Hey Tyler, too bad we can't get the posts to go directly to my phone...can we? Didn't we used to have a way to get an email whenever anyone responded to a thread we were interested in? How do I make that happen?

Stuart said:

You know what I get out of that report? Complicity. If the FBI, DEA, Border Patrol and Mexican Intelligence know this much about the players, who they are, where they are from, their names, when they are making moves like this, how many men are being sent to fight... and they do nothing? Arrest nobody and just let it happen? WTF? It just begs the question: Who REALLY IS running the country in Mexico?

"Bear in mind that the Army did nothing during this occupation; they didn’t move in on Gilo, they didn’t move on the Sinaloans."

GringoZona said:

Rosie, when you post, don't use the Quick Reply option, go to "Advanced."

Then scroll down to the options below the post itself and find "Subscription"
"Subscribe to this thread and notify me of changes"

Then you choose: "Instantly, using email."

mis2810 said:

Can't they see they're just hurting their own people? Whatever happened to Viva La Raza?

Stuart said:

You know what I get out of that report? Complicity. If the FBI, DEA, Border Patrol and Mexican Intelligence know this much about the players, who they are, where they are from, their names, when they are making moves like this, how many men are being sent to fight... and they do nothing? Arrest nobody and just let it happen? WTF? It just begs the question: Who REALLY IS running the country in Mexico?

"Bear in mind that the Army did nothing during this occupation; they didn’t move in on Gilo, they didn’t move on the Sinaloans."

Pete said:

Nogales is far away from Puerto Penasco........Rocky Point still remains safe & super safe for tourists.( Facts are the Facts )...I just spent June 28- July 4th in Rocky Point & I couldnt have been any safer w/ thousands of tourists safely enjoying the beach.......Jaurez where the real shooting is happening & the cartels are killing eachother is directly next to El Paso Texas and El Paso remains one of the safest cities in the USA.

My point is because there was a shootout in a desert drug corridor 125 miles from Penasco doesnt all of a sudden make it unsafe for tourists to go to RP. Hundreds of people are killed in Chicago, Phx, LA ETC....Would you still go to those cities?? ofcoarse you would....

Facts are the facts thousands of American tourists go safely to RP every month w/ NO PROBLEMS....You are safer in RP than you are in many American cities.........See you on the beach......

Kenny said:

audsley, Isn't that a bit like watching your house burn down, without even trying to put out the fire?

Kenny said:

audsley, Isn't that a bit like watching your house burn down, without even trying to put out the fire?

audsley said:

Can't help commenting on the "complicity" theory.

When you have two enemies and they're destroying each other, why not stay out of their way?

This took place out in a rural area where bystanders aren't at risk. What did you want the Mexican army or FBI to do - send in an Apache helicopter to start mowing down everybody on two legs, or try to round them up and put them on trial for... what exactly? Being present at a big gunfight? Unless you've got videotape of specific identifiable individuals shooting at someone, what could convict them of? Should you put your own men at risk by walking into a firefight between a few hundred people, or just let them do your work for you?

Stuart said:

Uhhh, you're missing something very key here - this kind of violence only begets MORE violence, usually an even bigger retalitory strike. The when, where and who gets killed in the next one could very well be you, minding your own damned business when the bullets start flying.

My point about complicity was that if they (the powers that be) know so much, they should take them out BEFORE it escalates to this level. Right now, it's a sit-and-wait mentality because everyone knows there's another huge bomb, probably bigger than this one, with a fuse lit and burning... nobody can be certain where it will explode.[/QUOT
You are exactly right.probably sooner than later. Jerry you also understand very well what is happening.

Stuart said:

Uhhh, you're missing something very key here - this kind of violence only begets MORE violence, usually an even bigger retalitory strike. The when, where and who gets killed in the next one could very well be you, minding your own damned business when the bullets start flying.

My point about complicity was that if they (the powers that be) know so much, they should take them out BEFORE it escalates to this level. Right now, it's a sit-and-wait mentality because everyone knows there's another huge bomb, probably bigger than this one, with a fuse lit and burning... nobody can be certain where it will explode.

mis2810 said:

But Stuart, it's not like just cutting off the head kills the rest of the body. It's the same with Al Quaeda - you kill the current bosses and there's always others lower in the ranks waiting to move up, and at the same time they're recruiting more to join up.

rockyptjoe said:

In this case (although I don't quite see your analogy)....I would wait till they shot each up, and then mop up afterwards. Actually, I would encourage (or facilitate) more gunfights like this one.....send misinformation to both camps so that they show up at the same location.....and let the fireworks begin!!! Then bring in a couple of helicopter gunships to mop up....they are brutal killers and should be treated that way!

"In the early 1880s, Arizona was not only having an Indian war, but border crimes and killings were making Arizona unfit to live in."

Kenny said:

Those boy's shot first and often (killed a lot of men) but they did have one thing that backed up their killings, a badge.

janetandclint said:

As Che said, when the revolution comes, I know what side I will be on, the poor of the earth.

Kenny said:

That's not the way things are supposed to be done in a "civilized county" Joe. When A.Z. and N.M. were trying to become states (1914?) they were told to clean up their lawlessness, or they weren't going to let them in; but of course politics played a big part as well. Letting things just go as far as the Narco's are willing to go is not only wrong, it's putting the whole state of Sonora in jeopardy. OK, in A.Z's case they had the "26 men" who had the bible in one hand, and a gun in the other. Those boy's shot first and often (killed a lot of men) but they did have one thing that backed up their killings, a badge.

janetandclint said:

Sounds like the Cochise Militia and the Minutemen are hoping to get in the fray. if they meet up with the drug cartels, they will be in way, way over their head. But I suspect that the people they will direct their antagonism against will be poor Mexicans risking their lives by crossing in a dangerous area to find family members or jobs in the U.S. I am certainly praying for the latter. As Che said, when the revolution comes, I know what side I will be on, the poor of the earth.

jerry said:

The Cochise Militia is a joke...60 year old guys looking for headlines....i live on the major human trafficking route in Cochise County and I'd say the traffic is down 80 percent from 3 years ago because the jobs no longer exist.....no foot prints period this morning..Way more BP around....

audsley said:

.......Actually, I always thought recognizing and accepting that some cultures are different from mine and accepting that this isn't necessarily a bad, was a sign that I'm enlightened and all that.....

InkaRoads said:

audsley, I like your whole post, but the best part is what I quoted above, I wish many more people will realise that eventhough we are all humans does not mean we are all the same when it comes to customs, habits and culture, even among similar countries there are huge differences, as and example USA and UK, just to name 2!! :eek3:

jerry said:

This is how we end the drug war and save our ratty yet lovable Rocky Point:
Legalizing the production and distribution of marijuana in California could cut the price of the drug by as much as 80 percent and increase consumption, according to a new study by the nonprofit RAND Corporation that examines many issues raised by proposals to legalize marijuana in the state...Based on an analysis of known production costs and surveys of the current price of marijuana, researchers suggest the untaxed retail price of high-quality marijuana could drop to as low as $38 per ounce compared to about $375 per ounce today.
THE RAND CORPORATION

lagrimas85 said:

Front page of this weeks edition of De Frente, Oscar Palacio taking about the presence of the big cartels now in Penasco.

mis2810 said:

Can you post a link please?

Roberto said:

Advocating ignoring or encouraging this type of violence ignores the fact that little settlements, like Tubutama are populated by men, women and children of families that probably have settled and farmed there for a couple of hundred years. Check it out on Google maps. These people are probably being terrorized as we sit at out keyboards offering sage advice.

I'd love to hear your advice if this type of thing was happening in your community or where you have family. My take on it is that it is in Mexico so it's OK to encouarge brutality and lawlessness. Let THEM shoot it out. I'll watch and we can talk about it, it's exciting !!

Lagrimis, you know the rest of the story.

audsley said:

The presence of non-combatants was a factor that was not presented until now, or at least I hadn't seen it. It was my understanding that this took place outside a community, not in one. Thus there is no legitimate basis to suggest indifference on my part regarding the general public's safety in a Mexican community.

.

Roberto said:

That's pretty funny. First, if you had taken the time to think, explore and gather some information for your understanding you would have realized this particular event did not take place in a vacumn, a specially prepared battlefield, you know like a board game at home. Lack of consideration is indifference right? Your earlier support of letting them fight it out seemed to me a general one, not specific to this little town. Maybe I got that wrong. You weren't the only one advocating what seems to me wholesale violence. Where ever they decide to meet, let them shoot it out and mop up later sort of logic. Do you actually believe that you can let two large groups of armed men fight it out with automatic weapons, grenades, etc in or near homes, towns, farms across a country without innocent people being involved? Oh then we might have a bit of collateral damage, might be a few non-combatants harmed a bit. A few shacks damaged, no great loss, it was not in my neighborhood. Hey guy, try using the words innocent men, women, children and Homes. All the violence in TV and movies has desensitized several generations of US folk.

Audsley Sez:
'Actually, I always thought recognizing and accepting that some cultures are different from mine and accepting that this isn't necessarily a bad, was a sign that I'm enlightened and all that. Seems a guy can't win when the political correctness police feel like going on a tear. "

What is this nonsense gobbledygook?? What did you recognize was different in this situation than the US? That it is in a different country, Mexico so it's OK ? Hey guy, there is no winning, it's a matter of morality and sensitivity. Politics are temporary, what's correct one day is not the next, that's the point of the phrase 'Politically Correct". It's also irrelevant whether you are a Tea Party guy or an NPR freak. Your enlightenment seems to me to be passed through a distorted lens, the US way of seeing things, knowing best, correct, willing to permit or ignore violence against other people who are different.

I think people who expose themselves to the crap on TV and movies view the violence of conflict as presented by the media as public entertainment, as long as they are not the ones in with the lions. It's exciting as long as I'm in the spectator seats , no ? I'm going to go vomit.

Wahoo said:

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/Brahm1700/87609

in another story the local perpective on the 4th of July points to a sharp decrease in visitors.
Locals now turning inward, to promote to Mexican vacationers, schools holiday.

http://defrente.com.mx/2010/07/no-vino-mucho-turismo-este-4-de-julio/

you can use google translate.....

Roberto said:

RPJ sez; just love the "moral high horse" you're trying to ride here!!! If you recall the basis for some of the comments made, it was the possible "collusion" of the US and Mexican governments, and the reasoning for allowing the cartels to shoot it out, then mop up whoever was left standing. So you would prefer to have the Mexican army also involved in the shootout that was discussed? And more lives to be lost...namely the soldiers? Do you think any fewer "innocents" lives would be lost? So let's keep this discussion in the context the comments were made!!! :stir::fail:

Oh, Ok sorry, you did NOT advocate wholesale violence and you did show consideration for innocent bystanders, my mistake, sorry. Those words came out so someone else's mouth. March on !!

Roberto said:

I think you miss the point that your fantasy solution will not occur in a sanitized field of battle, like a living room board game or in a movie or TV show.

audsley said:

Jerry,

So you're suggesting that despite Calderone's public pronoucement to the contrary, Mexico's national policy hasn't changed much from what it was under Fox and his predecessors. Drug smuggling will continue to operate under government franchise, except that it's now to become a monopoly as soon as Guzman can consolidate control, and all this is sanctioned by the US. I'd like to think that's not true, but i have to allow that it could be.

NPR did a study of sorts which showed the Sinaloans have suffered the least from the government's supposed crackdown. Your theory fits that finding. However, I don't think we can do more than speculate. It's possible that Calderone plans to go after the Sinaloans later when they're weaker, assuming they're actually getting weaker.

As for Roberto's critique of my earlier posts, I'd like to know what the Mexican government could have done to protect the locals in Tubatama unless they had prior knowledge of when and where the shootout would take place. What should they have done upon learning there wa a shootout in progress at this location? My question now is whether there are still narcos in the immediate area and, if so, why the army isn't moving in to protect the locals.

Roberto said:

That's pretty funny. First, if you had taken the time to think, explore and gather some information for your understanding you would have realized this particular event did not take place in a vacumn, a specially prepared battlefield, you know like a board game at home. Lack of consideration is indifference right? Your earlier support of letting them fight it out seemed to me a general one, not specific to this little town. Maybe I got that wrong. You weren't the only one advocating what seems to me wholesale violence. Where ever they decide to meet, let them shoot it out and mop up later sort of logic. Do you actually believe that you can let two large groups of armed men fight it out with automatic weapons, grenades, etc in or near homes, towns, farms across a country without innocent people being involved? Oh then we might have a bit of collateral damage, might be a few non-combatants harmed a bit. A few shacks damaged, no great loss, it was not in my neighborhood. Hey guy, try using the words innocent men, women, children and Homes. All the violence in TV and movies has desensitized several generations of US folk.

Audsley Sez:
'Actually, I always thought recognizing and accepting that some cultures are different from mine and accepting that this isn't necessarily a bad, was a sign that I'm enlightened and all that. Seems a guy can't win when the political correctness police feel like going on a tear. "

What is this nonsense gobbledygook?? What did you recognize was different in this situation than the US? That it is in a different country, Mexico so it's OK ? Hey guy, there is no winning, it's a matter of morality and sensitivity. Politics are temporary, what's correct one day is not the next, that's the point of the phrase 'Politically Correct". It's also irrelevant whether you are a Tea Party guy or an NPR freak. Your enlightenment seems to me to be passed through a distorted lens, the US way of seeing things, knowing best, correct, willing to permit or ignore violence against other people who are different.

I think people who expose themselves to the crap on TV and movies view the violence of conflict as presented by the media as public entertainment, as long as they are not the ones in with the lions. It's exciting as long as I'm in the spectator seats , no ? I'm going to go vomit.

janetandclint said:

I agree. We all need to abhor all violence everywhere for all people. The villagers in this battlefield near or by Tubutama have closed their schools early, hidden out, left town, stopped public events, stopped reading electric meters and lost two city officials. and must live in great fear for their safety. I live on the border and having friends on both sides and know just how much people suffer.

rockyptjoe said:

Very nice sentiment....I also abhor violence...BUT....let me know when you're going to wave your magic wand and all evil in the world will disappear. You're going to walk over to the cartel with an olive branch?

These are not reasonable people that have an ounce of humanity in their bodies. They are animals with no concern with how much pain and suffering they inflict....it's actually an insult to animals calling them that!