I was out helping with food distribution on Saturday so I wasn't along on this trip... but Rick H. asked me to come down and get some shots when they got in... and after showing this short video to RIC F. he told me to post it and he would add a report... all I'm thinking is the fish are just lucky I wasn't there or we would have really slaughtered them...
Thanks to SeaDweller for taking and posting the video. We had an incredible time on that trip. I have been wanting to fish with Hammer for a number of years and with my boat being down for repairs, I was able to finally make time to arrange a trip. My good friend Joe Branham had his brother in law in town so we set up a trip on Brents Tiara.....man what an impressive boat!! A fishing machine. We met at the dock just before 700 am, checked the weather and discussed the tide situation and then proceeded to load the boat. We headed out of the harbour and noticed some swell that was running 2-3 feet which we expected as the wind had been blowing steady at 10-12mph all night. Brent's boat handled that with no problem so we proceeded to head for the bait reef. We spent about an hour catching bait which consisted of grunts, bonefish, several species of jack and a few bass. We then headed for the targeted reefs for the day 18 miles further out. When we arrived at the first spot, Rick and Brent cruised the area crisscrossing the area they wanted to start fishing while planning out the drifts and making sure they were set up to spend as much time over productive water on each drift as was possible. After watching them for just a few minutes it was clear I could relax and just fish which I am only able to do when I am not running the boat if I am completely confident that whoever is running the boat is very capable. I did not have to watch Brent and Rick Hammer work for more than 5 minutes before I realized I could completely relax and just fish. We started fishing live baits and scampi jigs and soon had a beautiful Leopard grouper on board. Great start to the day! A couple drifts later, we picked up our first gulf grouper of the day on a scampi jig with a live bait on the hook. Soon after, we had another. As we kept fishing, they were able to get more and more dialed in on the drift and then it happened. Over the years I have been lucky enough to experience a double hookup on gulf grouper. A few times we have even had triple hookups ......this time was different. We actually had a quadruple hookup on gulf grouper. Four fish hooked up at once! Even better, we landed all 4 fish! We celebrated the moment for a while and spent some time taking photos and congratulating each other after that action. After recovering, we set up to drift and continued fishing but the bite had tapered off. we fished several more areas looking for some active fish when we hooked up again. This time it was a beautiful fish of 70 lbs that hit a live bait rig. We continued to fish and check out some new areas for a little while longer before it was time to start heading in. We made our way back to the harbour with a fish count of 7 gulf groupers and 1 leopard grouper. We had one additional fish pull free but had no breakoffs, very few tangled lines and hardly and snags or lost rigging. Overall it was a perfect trip and I would love to do it again anytime.
WoW... AZ Rob, Coasta Diamante and RIC you guys sure did provide some Fishy material for me to video lately... Congratulations Guys... great fishing...
Wahoo...i rarely post in this part of the Forum since I don't fish......however....you put up what is supposedly someone's quote...about harpooning a baby whale....and maybe I'm not awake yet, but can't find it on this thread.....would you care to indicate where you got the quote? Your whole post seems out of place on this thread!!!!:-?
i'm sure I'm going to get some comments on this...and in no way am I a "sportsfisherman".....I don't fish...but most of the "problems" with species becoming endangered comes from the commercial fisherman. I recall seeing a program back in the early 90's about the Sea of Cortez being fished out of any sharks....because the Mexicans permitted the huge Japanese factory ships to come in. From the posts I've read on here and the number of grouper, gulf or otherwise, being caught by the "sportsfishermen", that indicates to me that they may not be as endangered as someone may be indicating! But then again, what do I know???:stir:
Sorry if I'm off topic, but someone else went there first....
AZ ROB the author of post #4 is a friend of mine and I know that is was just a joke about spearing the fish... or sarcasm as you might say... because he's been out twice and his friends have caught the big fish and he didn't...
Also just a note about endangered species... the tournament earlier this spring was targeting groupers... the Mexican version of fish and game monitor the tourney and record weights measurements and sex of all fish caught... seems weird that they would target an endangered species...
Wahoo
Normally I dont get in to these type of piss matches on Forums but in all reality have you ever tried to spear a fish? Lets just say it is much easier with a pole and bait. Secondly Spearfishing is more ecologically friendly than dropping a line from 150 to 200 feet from the surface WE CAN SEE WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO KILL you cant do that from the surface. If you catch an endangered species you can't return it because it will die. Lastly if you looked at the avatar you will not see a spear gun or "Harpoon" any where near me as I prefer to dive rather than hunt (But I am not above killing a fish for dinner or grabbing a lobster when in season) :o
I have deliberately avoided entering this fray. I have strong feelings on both sides of the issue, as well as knowing Ric for many years. Ric (and obviously Rick) are both good fishermen. I'd also comment that, even though there are 7 or 8 fish laying there on the dock, they're still within legal limits. Mexican fishing regulations specifically state a total of 10 fish, no more than 5 of any one species. Dorado, billfish and sharks are calculated differently - in essence, each one counts as five fish. This is per licensed angler, not per boat. Technically, they are perfectly within their rights to have kept the fish. Morally? That's a whole different subject and something everybody should decide for themselves.
I have taken black seabass and I have taken grouper. I've never taken a full limit of either and feel lucky if I catch one or two now and then. Usually, I have more grouper break off than what I actually get in the boat. They can be a difficult fish to catch because of their sheer size and power. They shred line and tear up tackle. Catching one gives you quite a work out.
I don't want to see either of them black-listed as a no-catch. However, I would like to see the take limited to only one; all others must be released. Because grouper are caught in shallower water, there is not as much of a decompression problem as with the black sea bass, which are generally caught on much deeper reefs. Pull up a large black at the 51 and it's dead when it hits the surface. We have actually released smaller blacks and they seem to head back down and make it just fine. We've never been able to successfully release a large black. We've also released grouper at the boat (some release themselves!) and they swim right back down no problem.
So, if anything, I'd say go catch some fish, but only keep one or two grouper, not seven or eight just because you can. I personally release all billfish I catch and it pains me to see a dead billfish hanging at the dock just because somebody wanted a picture or a trophy. I don't criticize anybody for it, again, it's within their right to do so. Where I do get upset is seeing someone totally flaunt the limits or keep ANY fish that comes in the boat. Guys bragging about catching over a 100 fish and when I ask them what kind, they don't know (it was triggers) but they're certainly proud about slaying over 100 of them. That's just absolutely disgusting to me.
I'm with you on that Stuart... I've caught many big fish on camera, but the biggest I've had on a hook personally has been Leopard Groupers... and I have been on trips with Rick and we have looked each other in the eye and sent the message that we've caught enough... a good captain knows when to say that's enough and we have said it to customers and moved on to shallower water and caught and released bait...
Exactly Stuart it is all done in moderation I agree with the one large per person I too have seen people pull in tons of fish that they could never possibly eat before it goes bad but they do it to brag and take the pictures. As far as spear fishing NEVER shoot anything longer than my forearm little fish have tons of power against you under water you will go for a ride.
You know if anyone ever gets way too much fish and is looking to give some away... I know of many people that are hungry and would love to add some fish to their diet...
I suggest you don some scuba gear and take a look for yourself, you will be amazed how many gulf grouper are in them rocks, now go out and try to catch one, talk is cheap
I think next time scott and i head outwe are gonna target giant black sea bass the world record is only 560lbs. So we will probally have to catch quite a few befor we get one of that size. I here the best bait to use is totoaba so were gonna have to load up on a bunch of those. Man is this gonna be a fun trip.
OK Wahoo, I am going to call you out on this one. Hijacking a thread about a fun, successful fishing trip to push an agenda that most if not all grouper should be released is not appropriate. It is just as easy to start a new thread to start that conversation. Add to that, your perception that grouper are on the decline is incorrect. As wishamako stated, the divers and spearfisherman that I know tell a completely different story. That info added to my own experiences over the last 35 years fishing the Rocky Point area make me very confident that they are not. Are there as many grouper now as there were years ago? No. Are there other factors contributing to this to a much greater extent than sport and commercial fishing for grouper. Yes. The largest factor being the lack of fresh water entering the sea from the Colorado River. This has had a dramatic effect on every fishery in the northern sea of cortez. The 2nd largest factor is the reduction in bait. 40-50 years ago there were huge schools of large sardines in much greater numbers then there are now. The great reduction in the shrimp population has had an effect as well. This lower bait supply supports a much lower population of top predators regardless of what we sportfisherman do or do not take. Also if grouper were on the decline, then I would be finding it harder and harder each year to catch them. This is not the case. my catches as well as the catches of a number of other effective grouper fisherman I know have been consistent now for about 10 years. The size and quality of the fish has been consistent as well. There are definately plenty of 100 lb class fish around as well. every year, we catch a number of grouper from 85- 100 lbs and lose quite a few fish that are completely unstopable which must be over the 100 lb mark. The statement that they are a very easy species to target is off the mark as well. They are no easier to target then any other top predator and there are many days when they cannot be coaxed into biting even when they are around in great numbers. The idea that you just go out there and get them is very misleading. This perception leads many people who would like to catch grouper to give up after an unsuccessful trip or two and assume that they are all fished out. I guarantee you that every experienced grouper fisherman on this board has many stories of fishing for hours and hours without a bite.
The main point I want to get across is don't be discouraged when reading someones post about grouper being on the decline and that they are being fished out. I hear many people voice this opinion and give up on trying to catch a grouper. Dont do it, that is the lazy way out. Get out there and fish the reefs that you know using the techniques that have been described on various reports on this forum. Once you start getting a couple fish, your confidence will go way up and it will be much easier to fish for hours with no action waiting for the bite to turn on. Even if you dont have a large boat, fish the reefs in shallow water close to shore. There are many more grouper and in much larger sizes then you would ever imagine in reefs only 10-30 ft deep. Last, when you start getting some nice fish, take pictures and post them with pride on this forum, and dont worry about someone trying to taint your thread with propaganda.
I don't know if I have any sentiment to this issue that hasn't already been expressed, but one reason Black Sea Bass and Gulf Grouper are listed on the endangered species list is most notably because of their very limited natural range. However, within that range, both species have been rebounding back toward their historical population densities.
Also, regarding the management of Black Sea Bass- California has had a no posession law regarding these fish for over 40 years, and because of the population rebound, this law is being reviewed to be possibly eased up in the near future.
As Stewart mentioned- large Blacks are typically dead from decompression when they hit the surface. Smaller ones can usually be vented and returned to swin back down. What a waste to have to leave the large ones to float there and feed the sharks out of fear of being fined or facing jail time... Stupid, stupid, stupid. I consider Mexican law regarding this species to be superior to American law for the simple fact that at least you don't have to intentionally waste the catch.
I remember reading a post on BloodyDecks a couple years back where someone called Ric F. out about keeping several large grouper, and Ric gave what I consider to be the most rationally justified reply any person could give: he keeps only his legal limit, and he consumes every fish he takes. No Sportsman with that ethic will ever deplete a species. I fully agree with Stuart that killing a fish merely for the dockside photo is ugly and unnecessary, but using your kill responsibly should never make you a target of the "morality police".
I could see the logic in maybe doing modified bag limits on grouper so that the 5 fish limit should also maintain a size distribution, like one fish larger than 40 inches, 3 between 20 and 40, and one below 20, similar to a slot limit like a lot of states have on freshwater species.
If we want to talk about truly endengered species, then let's talk about Dorado and Bluefin Tuna; two species that are in REAL trouble, because they both have global ranges and are disappearing world wide due to commercial over exploitation. Let's talk about Totoaba and their spawning grounds being chewed up by shrimp trawlers and the lack of flow from the Colorado river. Heck, let's talk about the drastically lower number of California yellowtail in Mexican waters.
In short, let's talk about the difference between utilization of a resource, and exploitation of that resource. My personal opinion is that Grouper are not being taken to the point of exploitation.
I find it infinitley more ugly that the crews on the San Diego Tuna boats actually get pissed at fishermen who pay their boat fees, hook and fight a fish, and then wave off the gaff and let the fish go. To them, the daily fish count is more important than the wishes of the fisherman who paid his way to be out there enjoying his sport. My last trip out last Sept I had the hot stick and was bit 2 or 3 times on every spot- so once I had my 5 fish limit (we were in Mexican waters) I started releasing my fish as I got them to the boat, and the deck hands were fuming that I was not decking the fish and putting them on someone else's ticket number so they could load the daily boat count...
Where I do get upset is seeing someone totally flaunt the limits or keep ANY fish that comes in the boat. Guys bragging about catching over a 100 fish and when I ask them what kind, they don't know (it was triggers) but they're certainly proud about slaying over 100 of them. That's just absolutely disgusting to me.
I would have turned them in... Mexican law says only 5 of any one species (even triggerfish) :)
There was another post on Bloodydecks awhile back with a photo of 5 guys on a panga in Loreto that was FILLED with red snapper (easily 50+ fish)... it was nauseating.
Never be greedy take what you need for you and your family...I know guys and for them it is a numbers game and bragging rights I am very happy if I can catch enough fish so as I don't have to buy any for dinner.
i have been diving and fishing rocky point since i was 16 years old . i am now 43 years old. i have participated in many surveys and tagging programs. i am a very conservative fisherman . i was friends with a girl that did her phd thesis on the local groupers . we dove many reefs and pulled tape measures along and counted grouper. the numbers where mind boggling . these fish are hard to catch. there are not enough fishing poles in all of rocky point or capable fisherman to damage this population. my friend taught me how to vent grouper and i ask her what the survival rate of one caught below 100 feet was and she told me 5%. 5% ! i will be keeping my grouper and feeding my local friends with them. who are you " wahoo " my name is rick hammer my web site is hammerscuba.com i would love to discuss this issue with you in person . maybe you don't belong on this fishing forum.
...i was friends with a girl that did her phd thesis on the local groupers.
Hey Rick,
Would that have been Patti? I seem to remember a gal that had a website awhile back and want to say it was Patti Narjdin(spelling???) with lots of info about Rocky Point grouper on it? She was a BIG advocate of catch and release on grouper. Her theory had to do with the older grouper leading the younger grouper into the reefs to spawn and by taking the older grouper, you were basically wiping out the ones that would teach the younger grouper where the spawning grounds were.
Not saying I subscribe to that theory, but if that pea-brain inside my gray-haired skull remembers correctly, that was one of the key reasons she cited for catch and release of grouper. Don't even know if that website is still around; been years since I've seen it.
Would that have been Patti? I seem to remember a gal that had a website awhile back and want to say it was Patti Narjdin(spelling???) with lots of info about Rocky Point grouper on it? She was a BIG advocate of catch and release on grouper. Her theory had to do with the older grouper leading the younger grouper into the reefs to spawn and by taking the older grouper, you were basically wiping out the ones that would teach the younger grouper where the spawning grounds were.
Not saying I subscribe to that theory, but if that pea-brain inside my gray-haired skull remembers correctly, that was one of the key reasons she cited for catch and release of grouper. Don't even know if that website is still around; been years since I've seen it.
Stuart you are talking about Patti Nardin... she was Rick Barnes girlfriend when I first met her and we were partners with her and Barnes on the old boat the "Island Explorer" she was my dive instuctor way back when I did my advanced scuba class... she used to own the dive shop after she bought out Barnes when the dive shop was named "China Sea Sailing & Diving".... Barb used to run the dive shop for her...
Thanks Rick and Mark - the years certainly seem to run together after awhile. I didn't know Patti per se, might have met her at the dive shop once or twice way back when -- I just happened to remember her crusade about saving all the grouper from reading her website. I do remember at the time I thought it odd as I read some of her stuff on the web. Got this mental picture of a big grouper holding a baby grouper by the fin and leading it to the reefs! Hahahah!
Has the wind layed down? Anybody get out fishing yesterday? I was really psyched up about going to Lobos this past weekend, until Bouyweather completely dashed any hope of that on Thursday. Hoping for the weekend of the 17th to try again.
Thanks Rick and Mark - the years certainly seem to run together after awhile. I didn't know Patti per se, might have met her at the dive shop once or twice way back when -- I just happened to remember her crusade about saving all the grouper from reading her website. I do remember at the time I thought it odd as I read some of her stuff on the web. Got this mental picture of a big grouper holding a baby grouper by the fin and leading it to the reefs! Hahahah!
Has the wind layed down? Anybody get out fishing yesterday? I was really psyched up about going to Lobos this past weekend, until Bouyweather completely dashed any hope of that on Thursday. Hoping for the weekend of the 17th to try again.
and wasn't the big one wearing glasses down on the end of it's nose??? the winds calmed down yesterday but there were still some good sized rollers until last evening just before sunset...
Wahoo, F#$@% off and get a life. I had more to say but people like yourself just like to put a wrench in other peoples joy, and yuo're not worth it. If you have nothing good to say. shut the F up!
Wahoo, I admire your passion for your point of view as much as I admire Dan McCauley or Rick Hammer for theirs... however-
If you are really concerned for the fate of the Gulf Grouper as a species, then why not put that energy into persuading Conapesca to modify the legal catch and bag limits?
Seemingly, none of the degreed fisheries biologists in the Mexican government feel that the Gulf Grouper is as "endangered" as Wikipedia seems to think, or else the bag limit wouldn't be 5 fish of any size per person. Funny that the Dorado has more intensive bag limits when the average lifespan for a Dorado is 3-5 years (compared to a grouper's possible 70+ years lifespan)
Trying to change the minds of people who are set in their viewpoints is most certainly a complete waste of time and energy. Better to apply that energy where it might bear fruit.
For the record- I would only keep a large Grouper or BSB if I knew it was going to die of decompression anyway. I would much rather catch snapper, Dorado, Goldspot bass, or Flounder/Halibut for eating... and I'd rather see a stronger population of California Yellowtail return to the Gulf for the sportsman- tie a 20 pound yellowtail to a 40 pound grouper and that yellow would tow the grouper around backwards all day.
what would you suggest we do ? sounds like your the expert ?
Just for the record Rick... I remember when you had the Crystal Maria, and at that time you were always talking about catch and release, and how you would always do your best to assure the release of ANY grouper if you could. It was one of the things that I found admirable when talking with you. I also remember very well the first Grouper hanging picture you had for advertising the catches on your new big boat, because I emailed you teasing you about it. You replied that it was the first one (grouper) on your new boat, and for that reason you just had to keep it... I'm not going to get into this fight because there have been times when I've crossed my own line, but I knew it when I did.
Yes, but Conapesca defines and enforces policy- it's as good a place to start as any.
Rick Hammer's question is legitimate- what do you propose?
I seriously doubt that even an army of malicious grouper-hating Ricks and Rics could completely deplete the species. These guys are taking their legal limits of fish. If you don't like the law, then put your effort into changing the law.
Last time I checked we were talking about the Sea of Cortez I havent been around as long as Rick and some others but I have fished with Rick and will do so again.
If there are large Kelp beds near Rocky Point I will be really upset no one has told me about them because that is the greatest place to dive.
Last time I was at my Condo (2 weeks ago) there were nets so close to shore I could snorkle out to them and see what they were (I hate to snorkle so they had to be close)
Why don't you do somthing about them? Seems the nets had lots of diverse fish in them and there is no way I don't care how good of a fisherman or guide Rick is or anyone else
we could NEVER catch that many fish in 6 months as they were catching overnight with a net
Wikipeda is B.S. it is a user defined site anybody can post anything they want if nobody disputes it that makes it correct?
Started reading this thread - lots of issues close to my heart - I will add my two cents into the fray. My name is Ted Miller - I fish out of Puerto Lobos - lobosfishing.com
I first came to Puerto Lobos around 1980 with my neighbors from Mesa, Az. They had been coming to Lobos for twenty years and fished only for grouper. They quit fishing in 1981 after seven trips in a row with no fish. Today, the grouper populations are much better.
This is how I see it today:
Fish populations are primarily affected by environment - food availability, spawning conditions, natural predators, water conditions etc. There are natural cycles of the various species working out their relative balance in the ecosystem. Damming the flow of the Colorado River, and commercial fishing upset the food chain and has greatly changed the ecosystem in the Sea of Cortez. We have all heard and read stories from 50 years ago-the abundance of fish was incredible. Sport fishing (rod and reel) is part of man's influence. I believe the overall impact by sport fisherman is negligible, however a localized area can certainly be affected.
Our reefs have lots of groupers, we see them diving, we see them on sonar, and we have the thrill of catching them sometimes. I believe the gulf grouper populations in the upper Sea of Cortez are doing okay today. There would probably be a lot more fish if there were no shrimp boats, no trawlers, no long liners. These crews make their living from the sea - there is little to no enforcement of any fishing regulations - they believe if it is here today, take it - don't worry about tomorrow. This spring, within two miles from shore I watched fourteen sardine trawlers fish for five days in a row. One of the chase boats broke down so I was able to talk with the crew. Within a few hours each boat filled its nets. Then they would head to Guaymas to off load and come right back for more. Each boat holds 110 tons of fish! Last fall a local panga fisherman found a new rock full of groupers. Within a few days there was a fleet of six to twelve pangas anchored together all day, every day on a rock the size of a house. After about two weeks, no more fish were taken. I know of at least 75 big groupers that were taken off of that rock! I have also seen the by-catch on a shrimp boat. A handful of shrimp to a five gallon bucket of other stuff that is thrown over board. I am told of hundreds of groupers in the hold of a trawler. There are many more stories, however the point is a commercial operation, in one day impacts the fishery far more than a sport fisherman could ever do in a year!
For sport fishermen it comes down to ethics. How many fish are we are going to take at one time? To me wasting fish is wrong. Egos, bragging rights, thrills of the moment all contribute to wasting of fish at times. If I am sure all of the catch will be consumed-lets catch our limit. Many times we will catch more than we can use, then we can make a deal with the locals who consume all of it for sure. If the fish can be released, I will keep catching them for the fun of it. When the big groupers are piled up on the spawning reefs, and are very vulnerable, I will not allow over fishing on my boat, and have had several heated arguments on the water.
A word about releasing fish-I do not agree with venting a fish to be released-I do not know what happens but it seems to me if you puncture that part of a fish it might not be able to function correctly when it returns to depth. I have tied the anchor to fish by a light line and lowered them down and jerked hard to break the line and release the fish, believing that at depth the air bladder can compress and the fish can stay submerged. There are times when I see a big fish with ruptured blood vessels and protruded bladders - I am not sure if anything will save them when they are in that condition. When in doubt keep the fish, it is better than letting it die.
I believe all things in God's creation are meant for man's interaction, even groupers - we are endowed with discrimination to do what is right and we reap what we sow.
We all love this incredible Sea of Cortez - lets work to make it a better place for all of us now and in the future.
