Hillbeartoe
Guest
OMFG, thank you for saying that. If I would have said it.... I was thinking the same thing.
Gun battle in front of school in Rocky Point March 17
- Thread starter jerry
- Start date
Hillbeartoe
Guest
LOL.
Smilin' Jack
Guest
It's unclear what message you are trying to get across. Private sales between law-abiding citizens have nothing to do with crime, if that is what you are inferring. Private sales between criminals cannot be controlled by laws. Chicago is a good example, where there is a lucrative criminal market for stolen guns. The availability of, or affordable ammo is only a problem for the law-abiding. Try keeping your guns in New York, or Hawaii as a law-abiding citizen. As long as one's rights have been taken away in any part of our country, we are all at risk.
Hillbeartoe
Guest
I think you are over complicating what my initial point was, which is that getting guns in Arizona is very easy.
Legally purchased in a store , personally bought and sold with legal intent, personal sold with no knowledge of buyers intent or personal with criminal intent is not the point.
You keep mentioning 4473, it ONLY applies to Retail sellers.
"Q: Is it legal to buy or sell a gun if neither party is a federally licensed dealer?
A: Yes, in Arizona, Utah and Nevada providing the seller or the buyer is not a prohibited person under Federal law. California has laws in addition to the Federal law, and all firearms transfers must be processed through a California licensed dealer. No one may bypass any law that applies in their State of residence. In general, you must be a resident of the state where the gun show is being held to purchase any modern firearms at the show. "
http://www.crossroadsgunshows.com/faqs.php
How about this stuff;
"On Monday, Gov. Jan Brewer signed two gun laws. One would forbid cities and counties from destroying weapons they obtained through gun-buyback programs. Instead, they must resell them so that guns purchased by police departments to get them off the streets will then be put right back on the streets."
Or,
"Ms. Brewer also signed another law on Monday, which updated an older statute.
Under the original, no government agency in Arizona was allowed to “require or maintain” a record of “the identifying information of a person who owns, possesses purchases, sells or transfers a firearm” — unless he or she bought it from a federally license gun dealer. The new bill strikes that exemption and applies the don’t record rule to every gun sale, everywhere."
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/01/keeping-guns-in-circulation/?_r=0
You can not say that private sales between law abiding citizens "can't" contribute to crime for the mere fact that a private seller would not get an honest answer if they were to ask a potential buyer if they intend to use it in a criminal manner.
"Similarly, a study by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF) in June 2000 reviewed over 1,500 ATF investigations and concluded that gun shows are a “major trafficking channel,” associated with approximately 26,000 firearms diverted from legal to illegal commerce.7 According to the study, gun shows rank second to corrupt dealers as a source for illegally trafficked firearms.8 Another study explained that, while violent criminals do not buy most of their guns directly from gun shows, gun shows are “the critical moment in the chain of custody for many guns, the point at which they move from the somewhat-regulated legal market to the shadowy, no-questions-asked illegal market.”9
Additionally;
"Gun shows are a popular venue for “private sales” in which unlicensed sellers can sell guns without background checks. A 1999 ATF study found that 25 to 50% of gun show vendors are unlicensed.10 These private sellers frequently rent table space at gun shows and carry or post “Private Sale” signs signalling that purchases require no paperwork, no background check, no waiting period and no record keeping.11"
http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-shows-policy-summary/
Since you want to turn this into something, lets get real and realize that your 4473 point is moot.
So again I say, we all BUT sell them in Gumball machines here!
And again I say I am a gun owner and would not give up my rights as such.
Legally purchased in a store , personally bought and sold with legal intent, personal sold with no knowledge of buyers intent or personal with criminal intent is not the point.
You keep mentioning 4473, it ONLY applies to Retail sellers.
"Q: Is it legal to buy or sell a gun if neither party is a federally licensed dealer?
A: Yes, in Arizona, Utah and Nevada providing the seller or the buyer is not a prohibited person under Federal law. California has laws in addition to the Federal law, and all firearms transfers must be processed through a California licensed dealer. No one may bypass any law that applies in their State of residence. In general, you must be a resident of the state where the gun show is being held to purchase any modern firearms at the show. "
http://www.crossroadsgunshows.com/faqs.php
How about this stuff;
"On Monday, Gov. Jan Brewer signed two gun laws. One would forbid cities and counties from destroying weapons they obtained through gun-buyback programs. Instead, they must resell them so that guns purchased by police departments to get them off the streets will then be put right back on the streets."
Or,
"Ms. Brewer also signed another law on Monday, which updated an older statute.
Under the original, no government agency in Arizona was allowed to “require or maintain” a record of “the identifying information of a person who owns, possesses purchases, sells or transfers a firearm” — unless he or she bought it from a federally license gun dealer. The new bill strikes that exemption and applies the don’t record rule to every gun sale, everywhere."
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/01/keeping-guns-in-circulation/?_r=0
You can not say that private sales between law abiding citizens "can't" contribute to crime for the mere fact that a private seller would not get an honest answer if they were to ask a potential buyer if they intend to use it in a criminal manner.
"Similarly, a study by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF) in June 2000 reviewed over 1,500 ATF investigations and concluded that gun shows are a “major trafficking channel,” associated with approximately 26,000 firearms diverted from legal to illegal commerce.7 According to the study, gun shows rank second to corrupt dealers as a source for illegally trafficked firearms.8 Another study explained that, while violent criminals do not buy most of their guns directly from gun shows, gun shows are “the critical moment in the chain of custody for many guns, the point at which they move from the somewhat-regulated legal market to the shadowy, no-questions-asked illegal market.”9
Additionally;
"Gun shows are a popular venue for “private sales” in which unlicensed sellers can sell guns without background checks. A 1999 ATF study found that 25 to 50% of gun show vendors are unlicensed.10 These private sellers frequently rent table space at gun shows and carry or post “Private Sale” signs signalling that purchases require no paperwork, no background check, no waiting period and no record keeping.11"
http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-shows-policy-summary/
Since you want to turn this into something, lets get real and realize that your 4473 point is moot.
So again I say, we all BUT sell them in Gumball machines here!
And again I say I am a gun owner and would not give up my rights as such.
Mexico Joe
Cholla Bay 4 Life
Where did the popcorn emoji go?
jerry
Guest
Another bullet hole in my barn from a group of varmit hunters..idiots withguns.... The State of Arizona plague. Chained them in on the grazing allotment and waited for the cops..who did not show for 4 hours....the bubbas took 15 shots to open my Israeli lock...one succeeded in grazing his buddy...so I let them go....they claim they will fix the holes...we will see....
brokenwave
Guest
When I was down last week a local friend of mine and I were taking some brush and junk to the dump on the east side of Penasco.
We drove past a number of newer housing complexes just west of the dump that were for sale or rent. My friend said they were owned by the Cartel.
As we were heading back to Cholla he said to me a few times, Problemas en Penasco, Sonoyta y Caborca, pero muy Tranquillo en Cholla.
I had to laugh when I saw the bullet riddled car with the tranquillo caption.
You've got way too much time on your handsI think you are over complicating what my initial point was, which is that getting guns in Arizona is very easy.
Legally purchased in a store , personally bought and sold with legal intent, personal sold with no knowledge of buyers intent or personal with criminal intent is not the point.
You keep mentioning 4473, it ONLY applies to Retail sellers.
"Q: Is it legal to buy or sell a gun if neither party is a federally licensed dealer?
A: Yes, in Arizona, Utah and Nevada providing the seller or the buyer is not a prohibited person under Federal law. California has laws in addition to the Federal law, and all firearms transfers must be processed through a California licensed dealer. No one may bypass any law that applies in their State of residence. In general, you must be a resident of the state where the gun show is being held to purchase any modern firearms at the show. "
http://www.crossroadsgunshows.com/faqs.php
How about this stuff;
"On Monday, Gov. Jan Brewer signed two gun laws. One would forbid cities and counties from destroying weapons they obtained through gun-buyback programs. Instead, they must resell them so that guns purchased by police departments to get them off the streets will then be put right back on the streets."
Or,
"Ms. Brewer also signed another law on Monday, which updated an older statute.
Under the original, no government agency in Arizona was allowed to “require or maintain” a record of “the identifying information of a person who owns, possesses purchases, sells or transfers a firearm” — unless he or she bought it from a federally license gun dealer. The new bill strikes that exemption and applies the don’t record rule to every gun sale, everywhere."
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/01/keeping-guns-in-circulation/?_r=0
You can not say that private sales between law abiding citizens "can't" contribute to crime for the mere fact that a private seller would not get an honest answer if they were to ask a potential buyer if they intend to use it in a criminal manner.
"Similarly, a study by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF) in June 2000 reviewed over 1,500 ATF investigations and concluded that gun shows are a “major trafficking channel,” associated with approximately 26,000 firearms diverted from legal to illegal commerce.7 According to the study, gun shows rank second to corrupt dealers as a source for illegally trafficked firearms.8 Another study explained that, while violent criminals do not buy most of their guns directly from gun shows, gun shows are “the critical moment in the chain of custody for many guns, the point at which they move from the somewhat-regulated legal market to the shadowy, no-questions-asked illegal market.”9
Additionally;
"Gun shows are a popular venue for “private sales” in which unlicensed sellers can sell guns without background checks. A 1999 ATF study found that 25 to 50% of gun show vendors are unlicensed.10 These private sellers frequently rent table space at gun shows and carry or post “Private Sale” signs signalling that purchases require no paperwork, no background check, no waiting period and no record keeping.11"
http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-shows-policy-summary/
Since you want to turn this into something, lets get real and realize that your 4473 point is moot.
So again I say, we all BUT sell them in Gumball machines here!
And again I say I am a gun owner and would not give up my rights as such.
Roberto
Guest
You have my e-mail.
Roberto
Guest
Do not mean to hijack the thread but....... Word I got last night was that the guy shot 'was doing some bad stuff' independently so should not be the start of something bigger. He was #3 in the PP Plaza. Described as a clean shooting as they did not 'spray' !! Very bad that the wife and daughter were in the vehicle at the time. Other shootings are described as unrelated to this one. Yellow alert back to green
playaperro
El Pirata
News 4 Tucson - KVOA
19 hrs ·
Police have identified Ryan Elliott Giroux as the gunman who is accused of killing one person and wounding five others across several locations in Mesa http://bit.ly/1FCdojj
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Luca RescignoANTIBAN (l'originale)
Yesterday at 7:55am ·
Se al mio matrimonio ci fossero state delle damigelle così col cavolo che mi sposavo!!!!
Buon divertimento e buon pomeriggio
NEL POST E' PRESENTE UN VIDEO
Le 25 peggior gaffe delle damigelle d'onore durante un matrimonio
Fare le damigelle d'onore non è un impresa facile. E non stiamo parlando solo delle difficoltà nell'organizzare un perfetto, divertente e allo stesso tempo non...
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Tucson News Now
15 hrs ·
Since the deadly shootings on January 8th one of the things survivors have been pushing for locally and nationally is a requirement that all gun sales include background checks.
A background check policy here in Tucson has drawn the attention of Arizona legislators who
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Hillbeartoe
Guest
On spring break at the moment and up late. However it doesn't take much to find the info.
Smilin' Jack
Guest
So, to you, a law-abiding citizen is classified as a "kook", just because he buys a gun from another law-abiding citizen? just who is the "kook"?
Smilin' Jack
Guest
OK, Jerry. Substitute the slang term for another ethnic minority group for "cracker", and see if your statement passes the racist test. Slang terms are a no-no for minority groups, but OK to describe white people. Something really wrong with that.
Smilin' Jack
Guest
Your point still isn't clear, and you are a teacher??? No wonder our kids come out of school not knowing what end is up!I think you are over complicating what my initial point was, which is that getting guns in Arizona is very easy.
Legally purchased in a store , personally bought and sold with legal intent, personal sold with no knowledge of buyers intent or personal with criminal intent is not the point.
You keep mentioning 4473, it ONLY applies to Retail sellers.
"Q: Is it legal to buy or sell a gun if neither party is a federally licensed dealer?
A: Yes, in Arizona, Utah and Nevada providing the seller or the buyer is not a prohibited person under Federal law. California has laws in addition to the Federal law, and all firearms transfers must be processed through a California licensed dealer. No one may bypass any law that applies in their State of residence. In general, you must be a resident of the state where the gun show is being held to purchase any modern firearms at the show. "
http://www.crossroadsgunshows.com/faqs.php
How about this stuff;
"On Monday, Gov. Jan Brewer signed two gun laws. One would forbid cities and counties from destroying weapons they obtained through gun-buyback programs. Instead, they must resell them so that guns purchased by police departments to get them off the streets will then be put right back on the streets."
Or,
"Ms. Brewer also signed another law on Monday, which updated an older statute.
Under the original, no government agency in Arizona was allowed to “require or maintain” a record of “the identifying information of a person who owns, possesses purchases, sells or transfers a firearm” — unless he or she bought it from a federally license gun dealer. The new bill strikes that exemption and applies the don’t record rule to every gun sale, everywhere."
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/01/keeping-guns-in-circulation/?_r=0
You can not say that private sales between law abiding citizens "can't" contribute to crime for the mere fact that a private seller would not get an honest answer if they were to ask a potential buyer if they intend to use it in a criminal manner.
"Similarly, a study by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF) in June 2000 reviewed over 1,500 ATF investigations and concluded that gun shows are a “major trafficking channel,” associated with approximately 26,000 firearms diverted from legal to illegal commerce.7 According to the study, gun shows rank second to corrupt dealers as a source for illegally trafficked firearms.8 Another study explained that, while violent criminals do not buy most of their guns directly from gun shows, gun shows are “the critical moment in the chain of custody for many guns, the point at which they move from the somewhat-regulated legal market to the shadowy, no-questions-asked illegal market.”9
Additionally;
"Gun shows are a popular venue for “private sales” in which unlicensed sellers can sell guns without background checks. A 1999 ATF study found that 25 to 50% of gun show vendors are unlicensed.10 These private sellers frequently rent table space at gun shows and carry or post “Private Sale” signs signalling that purchases require no paperwork, no background check, no waiting period and no record keeping.11"
http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-shows-policy-summary/
Since you want to turn this into something, lets get real and realize that your 4473 point is moot.
So again I say, we all BUT sell them in Gumball machines here!
And again I say I am a gun owner and would not give up my rights as such.
You sound like Barack Hussein Obama, who recently stated that it is easier to buy a gun than it is to buy vegetables! Just another lie.
I only mentioned ATF Form 4473 ONCE! Yes, It only applies to retail sales, and they are the only sales that count, since NO law can control person-to-person "private" sales. Since no seller can read the mind of the purchaser, ATF form 4473, or not, no seller can know the "intent" of the purchaser. My point is that federal law is more than adequate for the purchase of firearms by law-abiding citizens. There is no need for additional state restrictions. The existing federal controls, regardless of state laws, is nowhere close to buying guns from "bubble gum machines".
I am a strong supporter of former Governor Jan Brewer in regard to protecting the people of Arizona from criminal illegal aliens, and a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment. I oppose police firearm buy-back programs, and support the legal transaction of firearms by those who chose to give them up.
I don't buy your nonsense government propaganda in regard to private firearms transactions. Private firearms transactions at gun shows are no different than private transaction in the homes of individuals, or in the Walmart parking lot. What is your point, desire, and/or your objective in this regard?
Under Operation Fast And Furious, Obama delivered thousands of FULLY automatic weapons to members of Mexican Drug Cartels. This was not a "gun show" or "gun shop" operation, where fully automatic weapons cannot be purchased. Just like the low-lifes in the US praise Obama for their "free" obamaphones, Mexican drug cartel members mock the US, and thank Obama for their free "Fast And Furious" weapons.
If "And again I say I am a gun owner and would not give up my rights as such", if this is your position, what are you trying to say or accomplish?
Smilin' Jack
Guest
So why would you be surprised? A lot of property in Penasco is owned by members of "the Cartel". They scare the tourists away, depress property values, then pick up property at incredible bargains! You don't need a "local friend" to tell you that "great revelation".
Hillbeartoe
Guest
What part of "it is easy to get guns in Arizona" are you having trouble understanding?
The lack of or more state restrictions is sort of a double edged sword. Extra regulation or restrictions means your rights may be infringed on. On the other hand no extra or even less mean the only gun control in place is the amount of guns you can legally buy from a shop per month.
Neither of these scenarios will change gun related crimes. And as far as I recall I haven't said anything to the contrary. You just want to argue about one comment/analogy. Bubble Gum.
Fast and Furious..
"Asked for comment, White House Spokesman Eric Schultz said, “The President was referring to the flawed tactic of gun-walking, which despite Republicans efforts to politicize this issue, began under the previous Administration and it was our Attorney General who ended it. In fact, this week’s IG report affirms this and if Republicans still have any legitimate questions about Fast and Furious, the 450-page report answers them. In light of this thorough report and Congress’s 16 month-long investigation, Republicans have no excuse to keep wasting time and taxpayer resources on politically-motivated, election-year attacks.”
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/president-obama-falsely-claims-fast-and-furious-program-begun-under-the-previous-administration/
Read the whole thing. Yes it happened under his term but wasn't by his order... That is your political slant as you would say it is mine.
However, your comment "I am a strong supporter of former Governor Jan Brewer" more or less says everything.
You are just picking to pick. Your and my opinion on gun ownership aren't that different.
If you don't think it is easy to buy guns in Arizona you are deluded. I mean you have to be aware that Arizona is at the top of the list for Gun friendly states with the least amount of restrictions and the most "Liberal" rights for ownership, carry and concealment.
You don't like my Bubble gum machine analogy then that's to bad. I stand by it. Are people buying guns in Bubble Gum Machines? No. But it is almost that easy.
You don't like the fact that someone can be a gun owner yet think it is too easy for anyone to buy guns... Well I don't know what to say about that. I guess it is your own hang up thinking that everything has to be black or white and there is no middle ground.
I am not arguing peoples intent with you and you want to blow this one comment into something else.
The lack of or more state restrictions is sort of a double edged sword. Extra regulation or restrictions means your rights may be infringed on. On the other hand no extra or even less mean the only gun control in place is the amount of guns you can legally buy from a shop per month.
Neither of these scenarios will change gun related crimes. And as far as I recall I haven't said anything to the contrary. You just want to argue about one comment/analogy. Bubble Gum.
Fast and Furious..
"Asked for comment, White House Spokesman Eric Schultz said, “The President was referring to the flawed tactic of gun-walking, which despite Republicans efforts to politicize this issue, began under the previous Administration and it was our Attorney General who ended it. In fact, this week’s IG report affirms this and if Republicans still have any legitimate questions about Fast and Furious, the 450-page report answers them. In light of this thorough report and Congress’s 16 month-long investigation, Republicans have no excuse to keep wasting time and taxpayer resources on politically-motivated, election-year attacks.”
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/president-obama-falsely-claims-fast-and-furious-program-begun-under-the-previous-administration/
Read the whole thing. Yes it happened under his term but wasn't by his order... That is your political slant as you would say it is mine.
However, your comment "I am a strong supporter of former Governor Jan Brewer" more or less says everything.
You are just picking to pick. Your and my opinion on gun ownership aren't that different.
If you don't think it is easy to buy guns in Arizona you are deluded. I mean you have to be aware that Arizona is at the top of the list for Gun friendly states with the least amount of restrictions and the most "Liberal" rights for ownership, carry and concealment.
You don't like my Bubble gum machine analogy then that's to bad. I stand by it. Are people buying guns in Bubble Gum Machines? No. But it is almost that easy.
You don't like the fact that someone can be a gun owner yet think it is too easy for anyone to buy guns... Well I don't know what to say about that. I guess it is your own hang up thinking that everything has to be black or white and there is no middle ground.
I am not arguing peoples intent with you and you want to blow this one comment into something else.
jerry
Guest
Sorry....let's say conservative mormon ruled city
jerry
Guest
Go to a gun show and look around.....kooks...all kinds of them...the girls from TDs were buying ammunition again for mystery men at the last fair grounds show....the dancing business must be slow